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As a Ukrainian: kindly, reconsider. Russian invasion wasn't started by the West. It's not a game. Supplying weapons and enforcing the strictest economic sanct

As a Ukrainian: kindly, reconsider. Russian invasion wasn't started by the West. It's not a game. Supplying weapons and enforcing the strictest economic sanctions is the least the West can do to ensure Ukraine's — and its own — survival. Nobody is "using" Ukraine. The invasion was in the works for a decade; the country has been at war since 2014. And if Putin's kleptocracy figures pulling back forces, returning captured land, and paying for the damages caused is the best way to go, Ukraine would take it. Conversely, if Ukraine falls, they have no reason to stop at Ukraine. I hope anyone with a sense of self-preservation understands that empowering Putin's regime in Russia by inaction is suicidal. So I stand with Ukraine, and I hope you will, too.

mjburgess 5y ago
The USA used Ukraine (and Georgia) in 2008 when it told NATO that it must tell putin that Ukraine was joining, despite no one else wanting it to. That's why all this is happening. Putin himself c. 2000 wanted russia to join NATO/EU -- and has found the USA's rejection and containment of russia post-USSR incomprehensible. When the USA insisted on neighboring states joining NATO, that's when Russia took this stance of NATO=Threat -- because, frankly, that was the USA basically said. Ukraine is being used again now. If the west wanted your people to survive, they would not have just proven to putin what a threat NATO really is -- by arming you, and by attacking the russian economy. The UK/USA has basically just confirmed the need for russia to conduct this war, and has given him every reason just to level your country. That is what's about to happen.
- asimpletune 5y ago
  Dude, your comment is absolutely bizarre, and that’s the most charitable way to interpret it. NATO is a defensive alliance, and isn’t a threat to anyone, unless you consider being able to deter nuclear warheads as a threat then sure, go ahead. So, yeah, if you have a bunch of nukes, which you plan to use/threaten their use, then I guess your neighbors joining a defensive alliance would be perceived as a threat. I think more or less the world is trying to move to a post-violence order, and I think it’s been made clear by their actions that Russia is threatened by that, for some reason. I can’t imagine why they don’t have more allies…
  - mjburgess 5y ago
    No one in this thread appears to be able to see the world from the Russian POV. That is precisely why this is all going to end in catastrophe. Imagine Asian countries (China, Russia, etc.) had a military alliance that was working its way up through south america, gaining memebers, placing nukes. And one day it says, Mexico is going to join. I can tell you, if that had happened in Peru, the USA would have invaded -- let alone mexico. This naiveity of "presumably we're the good guys and russia can see that", is a delusion that will lead to mass ukrainian deaths.
    - asimpletune 5y ago
      I mean, that’s not happening right though, is i? I presume if there were such an alliance, it would be because there are benefits to joining one. Maybe that’s why there aren’t any as you described. NATO isn’t the result of some hypothetical thought experiment. It exists because it offers tangible benefits to its members. So for your counter example to be valid the same would to have be true for such an alliance, in which case the world would probably be a very different place and probably not as bad at all as how you were arguing.
    - romwell 5y ago
      There's nothing here about "we're the good guys", and the only naïvety in this thread is believing that Russia's invasion was caused by Ukraine wanting to join NATO... after Russia invaded, took Crimea, and established LNR/DNR puppet states in 2014. Again, as a Ukrainian, let me tell you: it's never been about NATO. Russia has been suppressing Ukrainian statehood for centuries: betwen the disbanding of Zaporozhska Sich in the 1700's and the conquest of independent Ukraine by the Red Army in 1918, there's plenty of history before NATO even existed. Read the editorial that Russian-controlled media has published about their victory in Ukraine ahead of schedule [1]. It's about control. It's about Ukrainian statehood being erased. It's about Ukrainians not existing as people, only as "little-o-Russians" - malorossy (they made up a goddamn word for us!). It's about Ukraine being permanently aligned with the Russian state, which, in turn, exists to serve the interests of one deranged person. We don't want that. Please help us hold the line, because you'll be next if you don't. Read that article to see the future Russia has in store for us — and for you. To Russia, Ukraine "is not a country", merely a part of Russia that's behaving in error [2]. Of course, that vision is extensible to cover the entire world. Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic states, Eastern Europe (aka "brothers slavs") — and that's just the beginning. Read it. Thank you, and stand with Ukraine. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60562240 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60562240 [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/in-first-interview-since-departure-russia-s-former-gray-cardinal-questions-existence-of-ukraine/30456301.html https://www.rferl.org/a/in-first-interview-since-departure-r...
scandox 5y ago
I'm going to have this comment printed as a poster and put on my wall. It will save me many fruitless discussions.
- romwell 5y ago
  Thank you! This is the best feedback I ever got on HN.

mjburgess 5y ago

The USA used Ukraine (and Georgia) in 2008 when it told NATO that it must tell putin that Ukraine was joining, despite no one else wanting it to. That's why all this is happening. Putin himself c. 2000 wanted russia to join NATO/EU -- and has found the USA's rejection and containment of russia post-USSR incomprehensible. When the USA insisted on neighboring states joining NATO, that's when Russia took this stance of NATO=Threat -- because, frankly, that was the USA basically said. Ukraine is being used again now. If the west wanted your people to survive, they would not have just proven to putin what a threat NATO really is -- by arming you, and by attacking the russian economy. The UK/USA has basically just confirmed the need for russia to conduct this war, and has given him every reason just to level your country. That is what's about to happen.

asimpletune 5y ago
Dude, your comment is absolutely bizarre, and that’s the most charitable way to interpret it. NATO is a defensive alliance, and isn’t a threat to anyone, unless you consider being able to deter nuclear warheads as a threat then sure, go ahead. So, yeah, if you have a bunch of nukes, which you plan to use/threaten their use, then I guess your neighbors joining a defensive alliance would be perceived as a threat. I think more or less the world is trying to move to a post-violence order, and I think it’s been made clear by their actions that Russia is threatened by that, for some reason. I can’t imagine why they don’t have more allies…
- mjburgess 5y ago
  No one in this thread appears to be able to see the world from the Russian POV. That is precisely why this is all going to end in catastrophe. Imagine Asian countries (China, Russia, etc.) had a military alliance that was working its way up through south america, gaining memebers, placing nukes. And one day it says, Mexico is going to join. I can tell you, if that had happened in Peru, the USA would have invaded -- let alone mexico. This naiveity of "presumably we're the good guys and russia can see that", is a delusion that will lead to mass ukrainian deaths.
  - asimpletune 5y ago
    I mean, that’s not happening right though, is i? I presume if there were such an alliance, it would be because there are benefits to joining one. Maybe that’s why there aren’t any as you described. NATO isn’t the result of some hypothetical thought experiment. It exists because it offers tangible benefits to its members. So for your counter example to be valid the same would to have be true for such an alliance, in which case the world would probably be a very different place and probably not as bad at all as how you were arguing.
  - romwell 5y ago
    There's nothing here about "we're the good guys", and the only naïvety in this thread is believing that Russia's invasion was caused by Ukraine wanting to join NATO... after Russia invaded, took Crimea, and established LNR/DNR puppet states in 2014. Again, as a Ukrainian, let me tell you: it's never been about NATO. Russia has been suppressing Ukrainian statehood for centuries: betwen the disbanding of Zaporozhska Sich in the 1700's and the conquest of independent Ukraine by the Red Army in 1918, there's plenty of history before NATO even existed. Read the editorial that Russian-controlled media has published about their victory in Ukraine ahead of schedule [1]. It's about control. It's about Ukrainian statehood being erased. It's about Ukrainians not existing as people, only as "little-o-Russians" - malorossy (they made up a goddamn word for us!). It's about Ukraine being permanently aligned with the Russian state, which, in turn, exists to serve the interests of one deranged person. We don't want that. Please help us hold the line, because you'll be next if you don't. Read that article to see the future Russia has in store for us — and for you. To Russia, Ukraine "is not a country", merely a part of Russia that's behaving in error [2]. Of course, that vision is extensible to cover the entire world. Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic states, Eastern Europe (aka "brothers slavs") — and that's just the beginning. Read it. Thank you, and stand with Ukraine. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60562240 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60562240 [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/in-first-interview-since-departure-russia-s-former-gray-cardinal-questions-existence-of-ukraine/30456301.html https://www.rferl.org/a/in-first-interview-since-departure-r...

scandox 5y ago

I'm going to have this comment printed as a poster and put on my wall. It will save me many fruitless discussions.

romwell 5y ago
Thank you! This is the best feedback I ever got on HN.