4 ms·

As far as I understand, only UK and France have defence forces that can mount a proper fight and have operational experience, even their own nuclear triad. Rest

As far as I understand, only UK and France have defence forces that can mount a proper fight and have operational experience, even their own nuclear triad. Rest of Europe is far weaker.

baybal2 5y ago
Yes, NATO in Europe is US+UK+FR+TK, with some significant manpower commitment from Eastern European states, and that's all. It boggles my mind why Turkey keeps being ignored in this discourse. They have army big enough, modern, and powerful to alone defeat all Russian force in Ukraine.
- flipbrad 5y ago
  Is your suggestion that because Turkey has a large army, countries like the Netherlands need to increase their military capacity? Or reduce it? Or neither/other?
  - baybal2 5y ago
    I suggest NATO launch war, retake Ukraine, and deprive Russia of 60% of its military for almost no cost. This will be followed by Putin having to spend the next 40% of its military on keeping order within Russia. If he will use nukes, he will obviously not be able to do so (NATO nuclear retaliation will destroy at least 50% of remaining Russian military.) Even if Putin will stay in power, sending military to police innumerable Russian cities, and towns will take him off the list of potential threats for next decade at least. Use the time won to remilitarise the West.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      > This will be followed by Putin having to spend the next 40% of its military on keeping order within Russia. If he will use nukes, he will obviously not be able to do so. Initiating a nuclear launch is not a high-manpower operation.
    - dang 5y ago
      Ok, that's enough. After years of trying to explain to you why posting like this is unacceptable on HN, I think we have to ban this account again for now. Obviously emotions and tensions are super high right now, but (a) that's a reason not to post like this, and (b) this has been a problem for a long time. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: here's what I mean - and this doesn't include the large number of emails: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30470909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30470909 (Feb 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29621256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29621256 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26896780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26896780 (April 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26892834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26892834 (April 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630216 (March 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630202 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630202 (March 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843844 (Jan 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20072350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20072350 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18802969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18802969 (Jan 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15658648 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15658648 (Nov 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14786407 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14786407 (July 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13511792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13511792 (Jan 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464959 (Jan 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13446598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13446598 (Jan 2017)
      - throwawayfp2a 5y ago
- phoe-krk 5y ago
  > It boggles my mind why Turkey keeps being ignored in this discourse. Are they? They've contributed a lot of already-legendary Bayraktar drones[1], they've rejected Russia's request to move war ships through Bosporus[2], they're pretty clearly invested in supporting Ukraine despite the unwillingness to impose sanctions on Russia. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpmfKc96j8Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpmfKc96j8Y [2] https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Ukraine-war/Turkey-rejects-Russia-s-request-for-navy-ships-to-pass-Bosporus https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Ukraine-war/Turkey-rejects-...
  - baybal2 5y ago
    They do, but NATO heads of state seem to forgot that Turkey exists, and is an extremely strong military power, which can put can on top of any Russian activity in their vicinity within days.
    - toyg 5y ago
      Erdogan is effectively a Putin de-facto ally and would likely resist any such calls. Turkey is a sui generis NATO ally. The US "claimed it" to get the straits, effectively providing a nuclear arsenal as payment, but it's become very clear that the country's priorities have always been somewhat unique and shifted considerably since the Cyprus conflict - even more so since Erdogan's purges. Turkey would definitely be a NATO ally in an all-out war (which would be the end of humankind, so whatever), but they will probably never engage Russia directly in a limited fashion while Putin and Erdogan are in power.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  Turkey's air defenses are supplied by Russia. Ergodan was so indignant to get the S-400 that he risked loosing the F-35 over it, and did in fact loose the plane even though Turkey manufactures parts of the plane. After snubbing the Americans and the rest of Europe for the S-400, Turkey's only unburned military bridge with a strong power is Russia. They dare not burn that bridge as well.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > Turkey's only unburned military bridge with a strong power is Russia. They’re literally part of NATO. > They dare not burn that bridge as well. They closed the entrance to the Black Sea to Russia yesterday. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2/russia-cancelled-black-sea-passage-bid-warships-turkey https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2/russia-cancelled-bla... They’re sending Ukraine more drones today, too.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      > They’re literally part of NATO. Yes, then snubbed NATO with the S-400 purchases. > They closed the entrance to the Black Sea to Russia yesterday. It seems from the linked article that Turkey requested the Russians to not cross, and the Russians obliged. The Russians are just as happy with Turkish relations as Turkey is with Russian relations. However, rest assured that if a Russian warship decided that it absolutely must traverse the Bosphorus strait and a Turkish ship were to confront it, the Russians would have no problem asserting their crossing over a sunk Turkish warship.
      - spacemanmatt 5y ago
        > the Russians would have no problem asserting their crossing over a sunk Turkish warship. Much agreed. And just like the U.S. they don't cross a bridge like that unforced. Or so far they are playing it that conservatively.
      - pintxo 5y ago
        With the problem that sinking a Turkish ship could easily trigger Nato Article 5 if Turkey wanted it to happen.
toyg 5y ago
The disrespect for Italian forces is all over this thread. Definitely not as active as UK/FR (because their constitution, y'know, literally forbids any action on foreign soil not authorized by the UN), but still decently armed - all the way to the infamous F-35...
lm28469 5y ago
> only UK and France have defence forces that can mount a proper fight and have operational experience France released a report two weeks ago concluding it can only withstand high intensity war for a few days. We have good forces to do small scale interventions in foreign countries but we wouldn't be much better than Ukraine at defending our own land. Plus it's a small army and most citizen aren't trained. The air force allegedly has only 2 days worth of ammunitions Our only redeeming quality is our nuclear submarines float but that's more of a deterrence option. We're mostly relying on the US in case of a "real" war.
- jltsiren 5y ago
  The other side is that the US is the only country capable of fighting a "real" war against France. No other country has the logistics capacity to send a significant force to fight so far away from home. Russia is already having serious trouble with logistics in Ukraine, and the troops haven't advanced that far from the border.

As far as I understand, only UK and France have defence forces that can mount a proper fight and have operational experience, even their own nuclear triad. Rest of Europe is far weaker.

baybal2 5y ago

Yes, NATO in Europe is US+UK+FR+TK, with some significant manpower commitment from Eastern European states, and that's all. It boggles my mind why Turkey keeps being ignored in this discourse. They have army big enough, modern, and powerful to alone defeat all Russian force in Ukraine.

flipbrad 5y ago
Is your suggestion that because Turkey has a large army, countries like the Netherlands need to increase their military capacity? Or reduce it? Or neither/other?
- baybal2 5y ago
  I suggest NATO launch war, retake Ukraine, and deprive Russia of 60% of its military for almost no cost. This will be followed by Putin having to spend the next 40% of its military on keeping order within Russia. If he will use nukes, he will obviously not be able to do so (NATO nuclear retaliation will destroy at least 50% of remaining Russian military.) Even if Putin will stay in power, sending military to police innumerable Russian cities, and towns will take him off the list of potential threats for next decade at least. Use the time won to remilitarise the West.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > This will be followed by Putin having to spend the next 40% of its military on keeping order within Russia. If he will use nukes, he will obviously not be able to do so. Initiating a nuclear launch is not a high-manpower operation.
  - dang 5y ago
    Ok, that's enough. After years of trying to explain to you why posting like this is unacceptable on HN, I think we have to ban this account again for now. Obviously emotions and tensions are super high right now, but (a) that's a reason not to post like this, and (b) this has been a problem for a long time. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: here's what I mean - and this doesn't include the large number of emails: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30470909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30470909 (Feb 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29621256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29621256 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26896780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26896780 (April 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26892834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26892834 (April 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630216 (March 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630202 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630202 (March 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843844 (Jan 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20072350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20072350 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18802969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18802969 (Jan 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15658648 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15658648 (Nov 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14786407 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14786407 (July 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13511792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13511792 (Jan 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464959 (Jan 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13446598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13446598 (Jan 2017)
    - throwawayfp2a 5y ago
phoe-krk 5y ago
> It boggles my mind why Turkey keeps being ignored in this discourse. Are they? They've contributed a lot of already-legendary Bayraktar drones[1], they've rejected Russia's request to move war ships through Bosporus[2], they're pretty clearly invested in supporting Ukraine despite the unwillingness to impose sanctions on Russia. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpmfKc96j8Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpmfKc96j8Y [2] https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Ukraine-war/Turkey-rejects-Russia-s-request-for-navy-ships-to-pass-Bosporus https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Ukraine-war/Turkey-rejects-...
- baybal2 5y ago
  They do, but NATO heads of state seem to forgot that Turkey exists, and is an extremely strong military power, which can put can on top of any Russian activity in their vicinity within days.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Erdogan is effectively a Putin de-facto ally and would likely resist any such calls. Turkey is a sui generis NATO ally. The US "claimed it" to get the straits, effectively providing a nuclear arsenal as payment, but it's become very clear that the country's priorities have always been somewhat unique and shifted considerably since the Cyprus conflict - even more so since Erdogan's purges. Turkey would definitely be a NATO ally in an all-out war (which would be the end of humankind, so whatever), but they will probably never engage Russia directly in a limited fashion while Putin and Erdogan are in power.
dotancohen 5y ago
Turkey's air defenses are supplied by Russia. Ergodan was so indignant to get the S-400 that he risked loosing the F-35 over it, and did in fact loose the plane even though Turkey manufactures parts of the plane. After snubbing the Americans and the rest of Europe for the S-400, Turkey's only unburned military bridge with a strong power is Russia. They dare not burn that bridge as well.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Turkey's only unburned military bridge with a strong power is Russia. They’re literally part of NATO. > They dare not burn that bridge as well. They closed the entrance to the Black Sea to Russia yesterday. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2/russia-cancelled-black-sea-passage-bid-warships-turkey https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2/russia-cancelled-bla... They’re sending Ukraine more drones today, too.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > They’re literally part of NATO. Yes, then snubbed NATO with the S-400 purchases. > They closed the entrance to the Black Sea to Russia yesterday. It seems from the linked article that Turkey requested the Russians to not cross, and the Russians obliged. The Russians are just as happy with Turkish relations as Turkey is with Russian relations. However, rest assured that if a Russian warship decided that it absolutely must traverse the Bosphorus strait and a Turkish ship were to confront it, the Russians would have no problem asserting their crossing over a sunk Turkish warship.
    - spacemanmatt 5y ago
      > the Russians would have no problem asserting their crossing over a sunk Turkish warship. Much agreed. And just like the U.S. they don't cross a bridge like that unforced. Or so far they are playing it that conservatively.
    - pintxo 5y ago
      With the problem that sinking a Turkish ship could easily trigger Nato Article 5 if Turkey wanted it to happen.

toyg 5y ago

The disrespect for Italian forces is all over this thread. Definitely not as active as UK/FR (because their constitution, y'know, literally forbids any action on foreign soil not authorized by the UN), but still decently armed - all the way to the infamous F-35...

lm28469 5y ago

> only UK and France have defence forces that can mount a proper fight and have operational experience France released a report two weeks ago concluding it can only withstand high intensity war for a few days. We have good forces to do small scale interventions in foreign countries but we wouldn't be much better than Ukraine at defending our own land. Plus it's a small army and most citizen aren't trained. The air force allegedly has only 2 days worth of ammunitions Our only redeeming quality is our nuclear submarines float but that's more of a deterrence option. We're mostly relying on the US in case of a "real" war.

jltsiren 5y ago
The other side is that the US is the only country capable of fighting a "real" war against France. No other country has the logistics capacity to send a significant force to fight so far away from home. Russia is already having serious trouble with logistics in Ukraine, and the troops haven't advanced that far from the border.