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yup, seems the dominant voice on this on HN thinks the West has a moral advantage (it doesn't, Yemen Libya Guatemala, etc). Most people don't seem to know the

yup, seems the dominant voice on this on HN thinks the West has a moral advantage (it doesn't, Yemen Libya Guatemala, etc). Most people don't seem to know the difference between what we are seeing in Ukraine and a real Total War (mass bombardments on cities, every night). We bombed Serbia back to the stone age (infrastructures and civilians alike), so it must be hard to reconcile that with the current "limited" onslaught in Ukraine.

erosenbe0 5y ago
The US bombed Laos 1/2 million times. Yes, 1/2 million missions for at least 1000lbs of bombs per person. This information was hidden from the public at the time.
- rjzzleep 5y ago
  NATO(but mostly france, UK and the US) bombed Libya so many times that NATO ran out and Germany had to restock them[1]. Germany is always "kind of" neutral. The US dropped 27k missiles on 7 countries in 2016 alone.[2] But that isn't really the point of my post. While Russia did in fact declare war on Ukraine and for whatever reasons or whatever your opinion on that is, the West has effectively declared global war on Russia and it will take a lot of restraint from Russia not respond in kind. And since they can't respond in the same way economically the only option would be actual real war. This is what happens when you leave diplomacy to a bunch of lawyer bros from Oxford and Harvard who have never had to deal with someone saying no to them. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-libya-idUSTRE75Q5N320110627 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-libya-idUSTRE75Q5... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-bombed-iraq-syria-pakistan-afghanistan-libya-yemen-somalia-n704636 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-bombed-iraq-syria-pak...
  - baq 5y ago
    or you could say that they've collected intelligence on Putin and his inner circle and decided that they can turn it around on him. which seems to be sort of working, but at great cost. we'll see in a couple of weeks when russia starts running out of basic stuff like toilet paper. either way Putin doesn't seem to be treated as a rational actor anymore. he might still think straight, but he seems to believe in his own propaganda.
  - erosenbe0 5y ago
    Good point (edit: about diplomatic underperformance if not corruption) You dont want these Harvard law types negotiating since they have no motivation [on average] to develop that competence. USA has constructed a legal system that has oligarchial characteristics. In Germany the top law graduates do not automatically earn 3x salary of graduates of average schools who pass same exam with same concrete skills. So developing competence or refinement of professional skill is not strictly necessary for top American legal graduates as the system is designed and regulated such that their firms earn windfall fees and their entry-level salary is way above experienced lawyer averages. Whereas in German system (for example) the fee differential reflects more of a proper free market without such ridiculous features.
    - rjzzleep 5y ago
      There seems to be a pretty tight link between the CDU/CSU and the Uni Bayreuth lawschool though. There's also the fact that there are a lot of Law professors in Germany that are famous for taking advantage of girls during their studies, because if you don't get a good grade in the law system you're effectively out and because they have lifetime tenure they have nothing to fear. But I do agree that on the grand scheme of themes Germany is WAY better than the other countries, especially considering the fact that they actually have a lot more parties in their parliament and sometimes actually have diverse opinions on things.
      - erosenbe0 5y ago
        Thanks for insight on German system. In USA, as elsewhere, there is a market for legal services, which of course motivates skill and competence. But the construction of the system (by the elites) is such that there is maybe an upper 5% of services that generate ~10x more revenues -- things like corporate mergers, investment banking, certain torts, etc. This doesn't happen as much in other countries. And you don't get into the premium service club by working 20 years to be a master of the trade -- you get there by simply gaining admission to Harvard Law and passing the bar same as any other lawyer.
- another_story 5y ago
  And that makes it ok for Russia to bomb innocent Ukranians? What is even the point of bringing up the US and the terrible things their government has done?
  - Nemrod67 5y ago
    not really, but it makes us hypocrites
  - erosenbe0 5y ago
    Absolutely nothing makes it okay. I think the assertion is that if the USA looked inward and led more by example then that would make the world a better place. Leading by example is always best. Just these last recent Olympics the Russians couldn't compete under their own flag as punishment for various serious transgressions. But the greatest scandal in the history of Olympic sports by a mile is the American Nassar child abuse scandal. Were we Americans punished and banned from having our flag flown at the Olympics? So maybe next time we don't look the other way on decades of abuse? Nah, Michigan and it's insurers are on the hook for a up to a cool billion and life moves on for us none the wiser. Edit: we have to show people (non-westerners) there is a better way and not assume it is self-evident! If they are exposed constantly to propaganda on [true] western hypocrisies it makes it so much more difficult for them to believe that the west's liberal order, though imperfect, is not as rotten as the alternatives. So that's why I advocate for Americans to look inward
    - another_story 5y ago
      You don't think many Americans are equally upset about all the things their government does? Bernie Sanders was just on CSPAN talking about the US overthrowing leadership in S. America. Many Americans are fully aware of how messed up their country is. That being said, anytime anything anywhere bad happens a line of people forms to say “What about America,” as if that somehow absolves others. Also, the Olympics have been a joke for decades. I don't even understand why countries still waste the time and energy supporting it.
      - 5y ago
sofixa 5y ago
You've probably missed the footage from Kharkiv and Kyiv. Do take a look around, there's plenty of video, photos, reporting from the ground. Those cities are being bombed indiscriminately, and it's pretty much a total war for the Ukrainians. > yup, seems the dominant voice on this on HN thinks the West has a moral advantage (it doesn't, Yemen Libya Guatemala, etc I'm sick of this whataboutism. There's a problem, today, and your response is "fuck 'em, there were other problems before dome by those guys trying to help this time"? Fuck you. Yes, the "west" has the moral high ground here. It didn't when it turned a blind eye to Yemen, and it didn't when it incited chaos in Libya.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Nemrod67 5y ago
  "bombed indiscriminately" that is hyperbole, indiscriminate bombing is not taking place or there would not be a city anymore (not that I don't deplore any loss of civilian life)
  - sofixa 5y ago
    Look at the footage from Kharkiv and tell me that's not indiscriminate bombing. Hospitals, appartement buildings, schools, kindergartens are being obliterated. In a dense urban environment! They're in the process of destroying the city.
oezi 5y ago
It doesn't matter if the West is on the wrong moral side in some conflicts as you mention because it is clearly on the right moral side regarding Ukraine. Nothing gives Russia the right to wage a war of aggression. You seem to indicate that just because Russia is threatening Total War, they have the right to conquer Ukraine. They don't! The quicker the world steps up to stop an aggressor like Putin, the less people will die.
- erosenbe0 5y ago
  Not OP. I agree 100% nothing justifies this war. But American century of carbon guzzling hedonistic excess is effectively a war of aggression on the climate that we Americans choose to engage in daily.
  - oezi 5y ago
    Absolutely agree. As much as we should have stopped Putin a long time ago, we must stop destroying the world with our climate excesses. Unfortunately it is not only the USA who is to blame, but we all need to pull our weight.
- RedShift1 5y ago
  NATO and the EU kept expanding, even though Russia has made its objections many times over, explicitly stating their red lines. Instead of using diplomacy the west just ignored Russia. So the west and particularly the EU and NATO being on the right moral side, I find that questionable. And just as the Russians live in a media bubble, so are we. The war is, here in the west, being portrayed as a very simple thing, Russia bad, west good, Russian imperialism, west defending democracy and liberty. And we humans love simple scenarios like this, black and white. However if you read through the history of Ukraine, EU, NATO and its relationship with Russia you'll notice it's not black and white, it's grey all the way through. There are no winners here. This is a major setback for the west and Russia regardless of the outcome and who fired the first bullet.
  - oezi 5y ago
    The NATO and the EU didn't keep expanding, the Eastern European countries asked to join. They wanted protection from potential Russian aggression (in retrospect it is obvious how right they were), they wanted prosperity for their citizens. None of these countries were any threat to Russia. The whole Putin narrative that the West is at fault for this war by encroaching on a Russian sphere of influence is just incoherent bullshit. I also reject your 'both sides' argument. At least from a German perspective I know that European didn't do things 'against' Russia for the last 15 years that weren't clearly as a response to Russian wrong-doing (East Ukraine, Crimean, Syria). Heck, just one month ago Germany wanted to open another Gas pipeline with Russia.

erosenbe0 5y ago

The US bombed Laos 1/2 million times. Yes, 1/2 million missions for at least 1000lbs of bombs per person. This information was hidden from the public at the time.

rjzzleep 5y ago
NATO(but mostly france, UK and the US) bombed Libya so many times that NATO ran out and Germany had to restock them[1]. Germany is always "kind of" neutral. The US dropped 27k missiles on 7 countries in 2016 alone.[2] But that isn't really the point of my post. While Russia did in fact declare war on Ukraine and for whatever reasons or whatever your opinion on that is, the West has effectively declared global war on Russia and it will take a lot of restraint from Russia not respond in kind. And since they can't respond in the same way economically the only option would be actual real war. This is what happens when you leave diplomacy to a bunch of lawyer bros from Oxford and Harvard who have never had to deal with someone saying no to them. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-libya-idUSTRE75Q5N320110627 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-libya-idUSTRE75Q5... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-bombed-iraq-syria-pakistan-afghanistan-libya-yemen-somalia-n704636 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-bombed-iraq-syria-pak...
- baq 5y ago
  or you could say that they've collected intelligence on Putin and his inner circle and decided that they can turn it around on him. which seems to be sort of working, but at great cost. we'll see in a couple of weeks when russia starts running out of basic stuff like toilet paper. either way Putin doesn't seem to be treated as a rational actor anymore. he might still think straight, but he seems to believe in his own propaganda.
- erosenbe0 5y ago
  Good point (edit: about diplomatic underperformance if not corruption) You dont want these Harvard law types negotiating since they have no motivation [on average] to develop that competence. USA has constructed a legal system that has oligarchial characteristics. In Germany the top law graduates do not automatically earn 3x salary of graduates of average schools who pass same exam with same concrete skills. So developing competence or refinement of professional skill is not strictly necessary for top American legal graduates as the system is designed and regulated such that their firms earn windfall fees and their entry-level salary is way above experienced lawyer averages. Whereas in German system (for example) the fee differential reflects more of a proper free market without such ridiculous features.
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    There seems to be a pretty tight link between the CDU/CSU and the Uni Bayreuth lawschool though. There's also the fact that there are a lot of Law professors in Germany that are famous for taking advantage of girls during their studies, because if you don't get a good grade in the law system you're effectively out and because they have lifetime tenure they have nothing to fear. But I do agree that on the grand scheme of themes Germany is WAY better than the other countries, especially considering the fact that they actually have a lot more parties in their parliament and sometimes actually have diverse opinions on things.
    - erosenbe0 5y ago
      Thanks for insight on German system. In USA, as elsewhere, there is a market for legal services, which of course motivates skill and competence. But the construction of the system (by the elites) is such that there is maybe an upper 5% of services that generate ~10x more revenues -- things like corporate mergers, investment banking, certain torts, etc. This doesn't happen as much in other countries. And you don't get into the premium service club by working 20 years to be a master of the trade -- you get there by simply gaining admission to Harvard Law and passing the bar same as any other lawyer.
another_story 5y ago
And that makes it ok for Russia to bomb innocent Ukranians? What is even the point of bringing up the US and the terrible things their government has done?
- Nemrod67 5y ago
  not really, but it makes us hypocrites
- erosenbe0 5y ago
  Absolutely nothing makes it okay. I think the assertion is that if the USA looked inward and led more by example then that would make the world a better place. Leading by example is always best. Just these last recent Olympics the Russians couldn't compete under their own flag as punishment for various serious transgressions. But the greatest scandal in the history of Olympic sports by a mile is the American Nassar child abuse scandal. Were we Americans punished and banned from having our flag flown at the Olympics? So maybe next time we don't look the other way on decades of abuse? Nah, Michigan and it's insurers are on the hook for a up to a cool billion and life moves on for us none the wiser. Edit: we have to show people (non-westerners) there is a better way and not assume it is self-evident! If they are exposed constantly to propaganda on [true] western hypocrisies it makes it so much more difficult for them to believe that the west's liberal order, though imperfect, is not as rotten as the alternatives. So that's why I advocate for Americans to look inward
  - another_story 5y ago
    You don't think many Americans are equally upset about all the things their government does? Bernie Sanders was just on CSPAN talking about the US overthrowing leadership in S. America. Many Americans are fully aware of how messed up their country is. That being said, anytime anything anywhere bad happens a line of people forms to say “What about America,” as if that somehow absolves others. Also, the Olympics have been a joke for decades. I don't even understand why countries still waste the time and energy supporting it.
    - 5y ago

sofixa 5y ago

You've probably missed the footage from Kharkiv and Kyiv. Do take a look around, there's plenty of video, photos, reporting from the ground. Those cities are being bombed indiscriminately, and it's pretty much a total war for the Ukrainians. > yup, seems the dominant voice on this on HN thinks the West has a moral advantage (it doesn't, Yemen Libya Guatemala, etc I'm sick of this whataboutism. There's a problem, today, and your response is "fuck 'em, there were other problems before dome by those guys trying to help this time"? Fuck you. Yes, the "west" has the moral high ground here. It didn't when it turned a blind eye to Yemen, and it didn't when it incited chaos in Libya.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Nemrod67 5y ago
"bombed indiscriminately" that is hyperbole, indiscriminate bombing is not taking place or there would not be a city anymore (not that I don't deplore any loss of civilian life)
- sofixa 5y ago
  Look at the footage from Kharkiv and tell me that's not indiscriminate bombing. Hospitals, appartement buildings, schools, kindergartens are being obliterated. In a dense urban environment! They're in the process of destroying the city.

oezi 5y ago

It doesn't matter if the West is on the wrong moral side in some conflicts as you mention because it is clearly on the right moral side regarding Ukraine. Nothing gives Russia the right to wage a war of aggression. You seem to indicate that just because Russia is threatening Total War, they have the right to conquer Ukraine. They don't! The quicker the world steps up to stop an aggressor like Putin, the less people will die.

erosenbe0 5y ago
Not OP. I agree 100% nothing justifies this war. But American century of carbon guzzling hedonistic excess is effectively a war of aggression on the climate that we Americans choose to engage in daily.
- oezi 5y ago
  Absolutely agree. As much as we should have stopped Putin a long time ago, we must stop destroying the world with our climate excesses. Unfortunately it is not only the USA who is to blame, but we all need to pull our weight.
RedShift1 5y ago
NATO and the EU kept expanding, even though Russia has made its objections many times over, explicitly stating their red lines. Instead of using diplomacy the west just ignored Russia. So the west and particularly the EU and NATO being on the right moral side, I find that questionable. And just as the Russians live in a media bubble, so are we. The war is, here in the west, being portrayed as a very simple thing, Russia bad, west good, Russian imperialism, west defending democracy and liberty. And we humans love simple scenarios like this, black and white. However if you read through the history of Ukraine, EU, NATO and its relationship with Russia you'll notice it's not black and white, it's grey all the way through. There are no winners here. This is a major setback for the west and Russia regardless of the outcome and who fired the first bullet.
- oezi 5y ago
  The NATO and the EU didn't keep expanding, the Eastern European countries asked to join. They wanted protection from potential Russian aggression (in retrospect it is obvious how right they were), they wanted prosperity for their citizens. None of these countries were any threat to Russia. The whole Putin narrative that the West is at fault for this war by encroaching on a Russian sphere of influence is just incoherent bullshit. I also reject your 'both sides' argument. At least from a German perspective I know that European didn't do things 'against' Russia for the last 15 years that weren't clearly as a response to Russian wrong-doing (East Ukraine, Crimean, Syria). Heck, just one month ago Germany wanted to open another Gas pipeline with Russia.