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Former PsyOp guy here with OEF experience, now working in cybersecurity. Please feel welcome to ask me (almost!) anything, and I'll do my best to respond. edit

Former PsyOp guy here with OEF experience, now working in cybersecurity. Please feel welcome to ask me (almost!) anything, and I'll do my best to respond. edit - this TTP FM [0] (warning, PDF ahead) seems to be freely available, and gives a comprehensive overview of what PsyOp actually does in the modern US Army. Perhaps most relevant for today is propaganda analysis and the SCAME method, a multi-faceted approach to determining information about enemy capabilities and intentions. [0] - https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm3-05-301.pdf https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm3-05-301.pdf

vasuki 5y ago
Do you have any go-to public tools for fact-checking or any internal tools that you might have had access to in the past? More generally speaking, how do you defend yourself against PsyOp in this age with heavily degraded trust in the government and judiciary system in the west particularly?
verisimi 5y ago
How do you live with yourself? What possible ethical basis do you have as an individual have to mess with people (lots of them), lying, misleading, misinforming, etc in order to achieve a goal? Who decides what is a 'good' goal? Does it matter, or do you just do what you are told? I know the answers - you're just following orders, you believe you are working for the good, etc. These are not valid answers - you cannot pretend the actions you take against others are ok, because you were just following orders. Order following and misleading others at scale, makes you part of the problem.
- boston_clone 5y ago
  > How do you live with yourself? eh? probably much the same as anyone else who isn't perfect. there seems to be a misconception here that psyop == lying. the majority of psyop is well-presented truths as opposed to intentional deceit. credibility counts, and is easily eroded with careless lies. we did have a fair amount of latitude which objectives we would pursue, however, based on the relevance and estimated effectiveness for the demographics in the area. that said, reducing roadside bombs is an objectively good goal, in my opinion. as is encouraging people to participate in an election. as is informing the public about free medical services. > I know the answers well that's no fun! honestly, it seems your "known answers" are a bit off-base. try to keep an open / curious mind; we're still on HN after all :)
  - verisimi 5y ago
    Thank you for answering. Well-presented 'truths', according to whose perspective? eg: "reducing roadside bombs is an objectively good goal" Well, from one perspective - who wants more roadside bombs?! But if the road side bombs are being put in place by the natives of a country to make things harder for what the natives perceive to be an invading force, to help prevent the occupation and destruction their country, perhaps this is a valid act? Perhaps you would think defending your country against an invader is valid. So, from that perspective, what is the problem with a road side bomb when you are fighting an invading force that can call in airstrikes. Taking action against a far more powerful force in defence of your country is heroic. The problem with all 'presentations of the truth' is that its not a presentation of truth at all. There is no unbiased perspective. But if you are able to broadcast your message via a megaphone (via the media) loudest you probably 'win' - by lying to everyone. So, who has 'the truth'? Does the government that pays your paycheck? You are simply creating and broadcasting the message you have been told to - it is your job - you do what you are told for money. Right or wrong and truth have nothing to do with it. You may think you are doing 'right' but all your are doing is accepting the comforting provided illusions that your paymasters are providing you with to enable you to do that job. They say it is 'right' because it suits their agenda, and you accept that because it suits yours (money and not feeling bad about what you do). You are not expressing truth, nor is what you are doing aligned with your personal morality, if you even have a personal morality.
mule1 5y ago
Will institutions involved in psyops be deploying AI models in the future to create bot nets of psyops?
demadog 5y ago
I’m surprised the army literally calls it PsyOp rather than trying to disguise it as something more mild like “Communications Specialists”. Is there a reason for this? In my mind it would be to attract better talent that actually wants to do PsyOps rather than Communications, so it’s a good filter to attract smart people that want to do spy-like work.
jason-phillips 5y ago
> ask me (almost!) anything How well were you able to leverage automation and the internet to scale the effectiveness of your mission?
- csa 5y ago
  Not op, and I don’t know his answer, but… The most interesting stuff falls into the “almost!” category.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Haha you can ask it. You just might get a non-answer answer.
- boston_clone 5y ago
  Truthfully, almost no benefit at all, although I've been out of the military for some time now. Obviously there are military networks (e.g. SIPRNET) used to transmit resources / info between units and locations, but that's about the extent of it. My experiences in Afghanistan were almost entirely on-ground, working directly with local village leaders and OGAs (i.e. other governmental organizations, such as USAID). Perhaps unsurprisingly, direct communication with people provides the best avenue for learning / sharing / influencing. Most of the media we disseminated (whether print or radio) was purpose-made for various objectives like decreasing the prevalence of IEDs.
TeeMassive 5y ago
Did you notice an increase of techniques or pattern usually related to PsyOps (no matter from which side) during the weeks leading to the Ukraine invasion?
- boston_clone 5y ago
  At a purely definitive level, no. PsyOp cannot create a campaign (i.e. a coordinated approach to influence with objectives, timelines, etc.) with US citizens as an intended audience, but there truly isn't much difference between public relations / mass communication and some core PsyOp procedures. That said, I think our intelligence community and executive branch did an incredible job of establishing themselves as a high-credibility source from even before the invasion, allowing them to easily counter propaganda sponsored by Russia or whomever else. In my opinion, honest communication and appeals to morality / humanity will always remain effective.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > I think our intelligence community and executive branch did an incredible job of establishing themselves as a high-credibility source from even before the invasion, allowing them to easily counter propaganda sponsored by Russia or whomever else. I noticed that too, and I've seen a few experts other than you say it. I've always thought that the US fell far behind on information operations. Others like the Russians seemed to run circles around the US, which would produce anodyne responses much too late. I despaired that the US didn't seem to prioritize it, and would inevitably lose contests for hearts and minds, and lose them gradually in the long run. Organizationally, what do you think was the difference that motivated this change? Will it happen again?
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      I realize that wasn't clear and I'm too late to edit the parent: In the past, "I've always thought that the US fell far behind on information operations." Now it seems different. What changed organizationally? Can it be sustained?
sam1r 5y ago
Do you have an email we can ask questions directly? Thank you for making yourself available.
- boston_clone 5y ago
  I remain a believer in open information as much as possible. However, if you feel you have a question that isn't suitable for other people to read publicly, I likely won't be able to answer it privately, sorry!
wolverine876 5y ago
I don't know psyops well, but I do know just a little about small unit tactics, and I've noticed that certain groups seem to use, at a level sophisticated enough to clearly indicate they know what they are doing, the public information equivalent of the small unit tactics - complementary effects, reinforcing effects, fixing the enemy, the focus on offense and movement, etc. Is that a fair description of psyops - the information equivalent of more 'physical' tactics? How do they differ? Also, do you notice groups - political groups, companies, governments, etc. - using psyops outside military contexts?
- boston_clone 5y ago
  > Is that a fair description of psyops - the information equivalent of more 'physical' tactics? Absolutely it is. From a historical perspective, the tactic has known many names: Psychological Warfare, Psychological Operations, Military Information Support Operations, etc. By definition, however, only 37-series (e.g. MOS 37F, MOS 37A) folks trained out at Ft. Bragg are able to conduct PsyOp. Political groups, private sector companies, etc. certainly conduct influence operations - sometimes at the direction of former PsyOp personnel - but there are legal distinctions and differences. It's one reason I enjoy limiting how much television I watch: advertisements are just watered-down influence operations with the goal of "spend money on X".
  - electriclizard 5y ago
    >one reason I enjoy limiting how much television I watch Absolutely. I've no delusion that I can combat the manipulation. The best defense is to not absorb the data to begin with.
    - Lascaille 5y ago
      >The best defense is to not absorb the data to begin with. The despair that can result from this is almost unimaginable though. When you separate yourself from the propaganda infrastructure then try to have conversations with people and at the slightest prompting they start vomiting talking points and a viewpoint that's purely based on propaganda... oh god, it's unbearable. And you can't call them stupid because they're not stupid they're just... outmatched by a professional force.
throwaway10242 5y ago
How much warfare is currently happening on social media sites, nationally operated or otherwise? Are sites like 4chan, facebook, reddit or twitter very influenced by governmental PsyOp operations, national or foreign? To the average bloke like me it would seem like discussions on these pages are being "managed" A LOT, but i could not tell if that is the effects of standard propaganda on the population like the news or from deliberate/strategic postings. Obviously the phrasing of my question is limited to platforms that operate in my known languages, but the question applies in a general sense to all social media platforms. As many of us know, one of the most successful PsyOp propaganda tactics is that of controlled dissent. Funding organizations that present a fashionable yet controlled form of dissent in order to sway public opinion. How much of that is from private actors like Soros, Buffet, Gates, etc and how much is Govt funded? The state defends the interests of those with power, so is there a lot of overlap or is there a lot of internal disagreements?
- qnsi 5y ago
  Guys please stop falling for this psyops comment. I work in PsyOps and he was ordered to speak like there is no psyops against American citizens. Dont believe him believe me
- tediousdemise 5y ago
  The answers to your leading questions are probably classified at the TS/SCI level. I think it's safe to assume that there are a non-trivial amount of psyops happening on those platforms, since those sites are among the main sources of information for almost all people. It would be foolish to not target such low hanging fruit to manufacture consent if you are trying to influence populations. I would go further and add wikipedia and google results to the list. Conflict of interest edits on wikipedia by companies and legislatures are nothing new. Check out CongressEdits[0] and the slew of bots that it inspired, which enabled monitoring of IP address ranges that edit wikipedia. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CongressEdits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CongressEdits
  - boston_clone 5y ago
    > It would be foolish to not target such low hanging fruit to manufacture consent if you are trying to influence populations. While I agree at a conceptual level, I don't believe US Army Psyop to have a hand in any of that. However, the government as a whole is not exempt from that claim - see Operation Mockingbird, for example [0]. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird
carabiner 5y ago
How do you feel about psyops deployed domestically, against US citizens? For example, there currently appear to be psyops against worker unions, raising the minimum wage, and the potential for a 4-day work week. Were you experienced in these?
- boston_clone 5y ago
  > How do you feel about psyops deployed domestically, against US citizens? Short answer is that PsyOp is not used domestically. There are a number of criteria for something to be considered actual factual psyop activity, and a private company attempting to influence US citizens would automatically fall short of those criteria. My work was done exclusively and entirely in Afghanistan.
  - verisimi 5y ago
    This is not true. Operation Mockingbird is one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Wouldn't it likely be an agency performing domestic PysOps, not the military? And I would guess that it would be TS/SCI or higher, so not really known.
    - jonnybgood 5y ago
      Why assume the government is doing it domestically? Plenty of political organizations and lobby groups exist for this exact purpose.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        Well, the fact that the CIA was recently exposed as running a mass domestic surveillance program is pretty good circumstantial evidence. Political/lobby/corporate interests are definitely doing it too. The commercial ones may even be selling it to the government.
IAmGraydon 5y ago
A document with a distribution restriction and destruction instructions on the front page posted by a “former PsyOps guy”. Yeah…I believe you.
- zeruch 5y ago
  It was hosted on FAS, which had/has a long history of doing such things. Steven Aftergood was its co-founder and his bona fides are quite well known: https://sgp.fas.org/aftergood.html https://sgp.fas.org/aftergood.html
- boston_clone 5y ago
  Just wait until you find out that my security clearance is now expired and I occasionally browse Wikileaks! Information should be freely accessible. I held that belief long before I joined the military. If you're interested in the SCAME approach, check it out. Baseless accusations about my integrity are uncalled for, though. edit - for what it's worth, my calling it "PsyOp" versus "PsyOps" is a good indicator that I am what I say to be.
  - IAmGraydon 5y ago
    We’re all just names on an internet forum. Everything here is baseless. I’m not even saying I doubt you are/were involved in PsyOps. I’m saying I’m not so sure I believe the “ex” part. Anyhow…here’s a question for you. Leading up to Jan 6, it was quite clear to me that someone with PsyOp knowledge was involved with Donald Trump’s Twitter account. Any thoughts or comments on that?
    - boston_clone 5y ago
      If I were still enlisted, I could get in legitimate trouble - like, UCMJ action with hard labor, docked pay, then dishonorable discharge - for the things I've simply read. I wouldn't admit to that if I were still attached. But to your question - could you share a tweet in particular, or a theme before I answer? I'm not entirely sure what you're describing. Most of his tweets seemed from the hip, unpolished, and frankly without any point other than to stir up controversy.
csee 5y ago
Are Putin's nuclear threats a deliberate PsyOp to strike fear into the public so as to reduce calls for help/sanctions?
- boston_clone 5y ago
  Putin is ex-KGB, so it's probably fair to say that almost any public communication that comes from that state to have a tinge of psyop to it, yes.
zackees 5y ago
ta988 5y ago
Do you have books/publications that you recommend on PsyOps?
mjfl 5y ago
How evil are you, and your past deeds?
- boston_clone 5y ago
  I don't think anyone is inherently evil, but I can proudly say much of my work was oriented toward humanitarianism and democratic initiatives. Call it cliche, but you do win people over with kindness and decency. We worked to build schools, teach farmers about modern agricultural practices, provided medical services, and let women vote or shop by themselves in the local bazaar without fear. We helped reduce IEDs placed in the area to prevent civilian casualties, encouraged safe driving practices, and worked to convince young kids to stop fighting. I cried when I read that the city in which I lived for a year was recently retaken by the Taliban after we left. I could only hope that the people with which I shared hot tea on cold desert mornings, or potluck style meals, or laughs around a hookah, were able to stay safe. Does any of that sound evil to you?
  - johnpeng47 5y ago
    Nice psyop. Lol jk (somewhat). How much would you say the US mission in Afghanistan is influenced by this kind of humanitarian directive vs. some nebulous geopolitical motivations?
    - boston_clone 5y ago
      For a period of time, counterinsurgency doctrine for Afghanistan was entirely based on humanitarianism - i.e. "winning the hearts and minds". We stopped pushing that around the time I was there, as regular Army folks can do a fantastic fucking job of erasing months of progress in one patrol or meeting. I $till haven't landed on a $ati$factory explanation for our geopolitical motivation$ to $tay in Afghani$tan, though.
  - TeeMassive 5y ago
    > Call it cliche, but you do win people over with kindness and decency. You are probably familiar with the work of Dale Carnegie. A large part of HN find his work to be overrated and obvious at best, while personally so far I found it enlightening and found that the world would be a better place if people actually followed its advice. What is your opinion on his work?
bgroat 5y ago
How do you hire and trust people to perform PsyOps? Presumably they'd know what levers you're pulling, and they may be able to pull the same levers in YOU. Is it just a pay cheque and finding people who already believe what you believe?
- niyikiza 5y ago
  I'd imagine the main motivations are similar to those of spies: ego, revenge, money and ideology.
  - bgroat 5y ago
    I think you're right
  - boston_clone 5y ago
    Hard disagree here, as this job is for enlisted soldiers. Ego and money are out on that alone. Revenge, maybe? But you really don't know where you'll deploy. Ideology... maybe as well? The Army understandably does a pretty good job of obtaining uniformity there. Virtually all of the motivations of folks I knew could be abstracted to "things are truly bad for these people; how can we fix it?".
- boston_clone 5y ago
  In the context for this post, there is no comparable hiring process or trust factor. There is a certain level of aptitude and physical fitness required, but this job is plain and simple military service with some extra schooling on top (e.g. foreign language, parachuting, etc.) Manipulation and influence can look very similar, and naturally skilled manipulators tend to go elsewhere (I think there's enough research about career preference and correlation of "dark triad" traits to substantiate this). In my experience, most of the enlisted folks doing PsyOp had little idea of what it truly involved when they first began; however, the Army remains eager to redirect the passion of 20 year olds into counterinsurgency / foreign policy tactics.
Sebb767 5y ago
Somewhat off-topic, but does your PsyOp experience help you in Cybersecurity? I imagine it's valuable for social engineering or (possibly) getting management to accept that it's needed.
- boston_clone 5y ago
  Thanks for asking; I was wanting someone to bring this up. It certainly does help. All too often, great ideas are communicated poorly and end up going nowhere, I think. Knowing how to frame something for a particular audience, or helping people feel like they're heard / acknowledged / part of a team, or seeing through pervasive political fogs, and a bunch of other little skills that really boil down to "good communication" and "psychology" have undeniably helped. Somewhat unfortunately, I'm working on convincing myself that not all persuasive communication is bad!
  - nonrandomstring 5y ago
    > I'm working on convincing myself that not all persuasive communication is bad! No problem convincing my guys of this. We start with public health and safety campaigns like the famous Stop. Look. Listen. that ran through the 1970s with Darth Vader actor David Prowse here in the UK. Prowse, who fell out with George Lucas, once said that Vader was not his greatest work as a body actor by any means, but the Green Cross Man, which is estimated to have saved 500,000 children's lives. When I did influence work it was in a similar vein, directed towards the kind of things you'd have no moral objection to, like stopping kids from picking up cluster bombs or preventing rape as a weapon of war. There's plenty of for-good psyops work out there. There's also what I'd call "Counter-Pysops", which is just Intellectual Self-Defence. This can range from training people to spot and deflect phishing or blackmail scams, all the way to message analysis to spot and neutrally evaluate foreign psyops messages.
  - electriclizard 5y ago
    >I'm working on convincing myself that not all persuasive communication is bad! By a series of unfortunate events I've been victim to gaslighting from a lot of people in my personal and work lives, so I struggle with this too.
foxhop 5y ago
how do u tell if u r blueteam/target/prey during a pyops training?
raidicy 5y ago
Do you have any suggestions on materials that might aid in critical or strategic thinking? How closely related are PsyOp and Public relations/marketing/communications? Is PsyOp analogous to strategic sophisticated trolling?
graderjs 5y ago
Apart from you, are there other PsyOp people on HN? Any operations? If not, why not? Also, how big is podcasting and youtube? Also, what sort of tasks are "new recruits" put on when they don't have much experience? This is a fascinating AMA :)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kingcharles 5y ago
Beyond the FM you posted, are there any other documents or books you would recommend?
LittleMoveBig 5y ago
Did you ever meet Michael Aquino? Is his paper "From PsyOp to MindWar" widely read?
justatdotin 5y ago
hi, my city is host to rapidly growing (foreign) usa war bases. As an engaged citizen, I notice that local media over the past 10 years have not given this significant change to our town the scrutiny that any similarly sized development would receive. scandals such as sexual assault are reported by outlets in other cities, but not locally. what advice can you share to help me understand what is being done to so effectively manage the otherwise useful local media?
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Where does the US have rapidly growing "war bases"?
  - justatdotin 5y ago
    I live in Darwin. when I moved here last century, NSA were already well established, there were bi-annual R&R USA ship visits, and annual joint airforce training. The USA started to develop a USMC base in 2012 At the time we were instructed that they co-locate and personnel rotate, so you can't call it a base. not a base. definitely not a base. They began permanently locating USAF assets at our airport a coupla years later. They are investing $$big in USAF facilities a few hundred km south AUKUS announcements have included: new bases for five branches of the USA military, including a second USMC MAGTF. - and with that big step they've given up gaslighting locals with insistence that these are not foreign war bases. Suddenly the growth of usa war bases switches from being fake news ('notabase') to not news ('they've been building over ten years').
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      I'm actually aware of (some of) the basing in Darwin. Didn't a military-connected Chinese organization acquire a port there also, maybe back when the US Marines started building? I'm afraid that, given Darwin's location, allied military activity is going to be 'big business'. But the stanadard argument is that China has shown they are going to be aggressive, and that the alliances are much better than facing China alone. But living where a lot of that activity will likely be happening, what is your perspective? The 'good' news for you, perhaps, is that the US's strategy now is not to concentrate in large bases, which can be overrrun by new and future long-range precision missiles, but to spread out on many smaller facilities.
misterdabb 5y ago
Is this itself Psyops? ;)
- boston_clone 5y ago
  the real fun starts when you consider that everything is! but in all seriousness, no. don't join the Army unless you truly want to dedicate a chunk of your life to an organization like that. be a good neighbor, stay politically informed, vote, take care of your friends, help others in need, create art and support artists, etc.
anigbrowl 5y ago
What do you consider the best NON-FM/TA reference? So many DOD publications seem to be 10% 'military objectives' and 90% 'how to navigate the world's largest bureaucracy.' I tend to find things like monographs from the military's educational institutions a lot more valuable, but then they're narrowly focused which leads to a very fragmented way of looking at things.

vasuki 5y ago

Do you have any go-to public tools for fact-checking or any internal tools that you might have had access to in the past? More generally speaking, how do you defend yourself against PsyOp in this age with heavily degraded trust in the government and judiciary system in the west particularly?

verisimi 5y ago

How do you live with yourself? What possible ethical basis do you have as an individual have to mess with people (lots of them), lying, misleading, misinforming, etc in order to achieve a goal? Who decides what is a 'good' goal? Does it matter, or do you just do what you are told? I know the answers - you're just following orders, you believe you are working for the good, etc. These are not valid answers - you cannot pretend the actions you take against others are ok, because you were just following orders. Order following and misleading others at scale, makes you part of the problem.

boston_clone 5y ago
> How do you live with yourself? eh? probably much the same as anyone else who isn't perfect. there seems to be a misconception here that psyop == lying. the majority of psyop is well-presented truths as opposed to intentional deceit. credibility counts, and is easily eroded with careless lies. we did have a fair amount of latitude which objectives we would pursue, however, based on the relevance and estimated effectiveness for the demographics in the area. that said, reducing roadside bombs is an objectively good goal, in my opinion. as is encouraging people to participate in an election. as is informing the public about free medical services. > I know the answers well that's no fun! honestly, it seems your "known answers" are a bit off-base. try to keep an open / curious mind; we're still on HN after all :)
- verisimi 5y ago
  Thank you for answering. Well-presented 'truths', according to whose perspective? eg: "reducing roadside bombs is an objectively good goal" Well, from one perspective - who wants more roadside bombs?! But if the road side bombs are being put in place by the natives of a country to make things harder for what the natives perceive to be an invading force, to help prevent the occupation and destruction their country, perhaps this is a valid act? Perhaps you would think defending your country against an invader is valid. So, from that perspective, what is the problem with a road side bomb when you are fighting an invading force that can call in airstrikes. Taking action against a far more powerful force in defence of your country is heroic. The problem with all 'presentations of the truth' is that its not a presentation of truth at all. There is no unbiased perspective. But if you are able to broadcast your message via a megaphone (via the media) loudest you probably 'win' - by lying to everyone. So, who has 'the truth'? Does the government that pays your paycheck? You are simply creating and broadcasting the message you have been told to - it is your job - you do what you are told for money. Right or wrong and truth have nothing to do with it. You may think you are doing 'right' but all your are doing is accepting the comforting provided illusions that your paymasters are providing you with to enable you to do that job. They say it is 'right' because it suits their agenda, and you accept that because it suits yours (money and not feeling bad about what you do). You are not expressing truth, nor is what you are doing aligned with your personal morality, if you even have a personal morality.

mule1 5y ago

Will institutions involved in psyops be deploying AI models in the future to create bot nets of psyops?

demadog 5y ago

I’m surprised the army literally calls it PsyOp rather than trying to disguise it as something more mild like “Communications Specialists”. Is there a reason for this? In my mind it would be to attract better talent that actually wants to do PsyOps rather than Communications, so it’s a good filter to attract smart people that want to do spy-like work.

jason-phillips 5y ago

> ask me (almost!) anything How well were you able to leverage automation and the internet to scale the effectiveness of your mission?

csa 5y ago
Not op, and I don’t know his answer, but… The most interesting stuff falls into the “almost!” category.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Haha you can ask it. You just might get a non-answer answer.
boston_clone 5y ago
Truthfully, almost no benefit at all, although I've been out of the military for some time now. Obviously there are military networks (e.g. SIPRNET) used to transmit resources / info between units and locations, but that's about the extent of it. My experiences in Afghanistan were almost entirely on-ground, working directly with local village leaders and OGAs (i.e. other governmental organizations, such as USAID). Perhaps unsurprisingly, direct communication with people provides the best avenue for learning / sharing / influencing. Most of the media we disseminated (whether print or radio) was purpose-made for various objectives like decreasing the prevalence of IEDs.

TeeMassive 5y ago

Did you notice an increase of techniques or pattern usually related to PsyOps (no matter from which side) during the weeks leading to the Ukraine invasion?

boston_clone 5y ago
At a purely definitive level, no. PsyOp cannot create a campaign (i.e. a coordinated approach to influence with objectives, timelines, etc.) with US citizens as an intended audience, but there truly isn't much difference between public relations / mass communication and some core PsyOp procedures. That said, I think our intelligence community and executive branch did an incredible job of establishing themselves as a high-credibility source from even before the invasion, allowing them to easily counter propaganda sponsored by Russia or whomever else. In my opinion, honest communication and appeals to morality / humanity will always remain effective.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > I think our intelligence community and executive branch did an incredible job of establishing themselves as a high-credibility source from even before the invasion, allowing them to easily counter propaganda sponsored by Russia or whomever else. I noticed that too, and I've seen a few experts other than you say it. I've always thought that the US fell far behind on information operations. Others like the Russians seemed to run circles around the US, which would produce anodyne responses much too late. I despaired that the US didn't seem to prioritize it, and would inevitably lose contests for hearts and minds, and lose them gradually in the long run. Organizationally, what do you think was the difference that motivated this change? Will it happen again?
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    I realize that wasn't clear and I'm too late to edit the parent: In the past, "I've always thought that the US fell far behind on information operations." Now it seems different. What changed organizationally? Can it be sustained?

sam1r 5y ago

Do you have an email we can ask questions directly? Thank you for making yourself available.

boston_clone 5y ago
I remain a believer in open information as much as possible. However, if you feel you have a question that isn't suitable for other people to read publicly, I likely won't be able to answer it privately, sorry!

wolverine876 5y ago

I don't know psyops well, but I do know just a little about small unit tactics, and I've noticed that certain groups seem to use, at a level sophisticated enough to clearly indicate they know what they are doing, the public information equivalent of the small unit tactics - complementary effects, reinforcing effects, fixing the enemy, the focus on offense and movement, etc. Is that a fair description of psyops - the information equivalent of more 'physical' tactics? How do they differ? Also, do you notice groups - political groups, companies, governments, etc. - using psyops outside military contexts?

boston_clone 5y ago
> Is that a fair description of psyops - the information equivalent of more 'physical' tactics? Absolutely it is. From a historical perspective, the tactic has known many names: Psychological Warfare, Psychological Operations, Military Information Support Operations, etc. By definition, however, only 37-series (e.g. MOS 37F, MOS 37A) folks trained out at Ft. Bragg are able to conduct PsyOp. Political groups, private sector companies, etc. certainly conduct influence operations - sometimes at the direction of former PsyOp personnel - but there are legal distinctions and differences. It's one reason I enjoy limiting how much television I watch: advertisements are just watered-down influence operations with the goal of "spend money on X".
- electriclizard 5y ago
  >one reason I enjoy limiting how much television I watch Absolutely. I've no delusion that I can combat the manipulation. The best defense is to not absorb the data to begin with.
  - Lascaille 5y ago
    >The best defense is to not absorb the data to begin with. The despair that can result from this is almost unimaginable though. When you separate yourself from the propaganda infrastructure then try to have conversations with people and at the slightest prompting they start vomiting talking points and a viewpoint that's purely based on propaganda... oh god, it's unbearable. And you can't call them stupid because they're not stupid they're just... outmatched by a professional force.

throwaway10242 5y ago

How much warfare is currently happening on social media sites, nationally operated or otherwise? Are sites like 4chan, facebook, reddit or twitter very influenced by governmental PsyOp operations, national or foreign? To the average bloke like me it would seem like discussions on these pages are being "managed" A LOT, but i could not tell if that is the effects of standard propaganda on the population like the news or from deliberate/strategic postings. Obviously the phrasing of my question is limited to platforms that operate in my known languages, but the question applies in a general sense to all social media platforms. As many of us know, one of the most successful PsyOp propaganda tactics is that of controlled dissent. Funding organizations that present a fashionable yet controlled form of dissent in order to sway public opinion. How much of that is from private actors like Soros, Buffet, Gates, etc and how much is Govt funded? The state defends the interests of those with power, so is there a lot of overlap or is there a lot of internal disagreements?

qnsi 5y ago
Guys please stop falling for this psyops comment. I work in PsyOps and he was ordered to speak like there is no psyops against American citizens. Dont believe him believe me
tediousdemise 5y ago
The answers to your leading questions are probably classified at the TS/SCI level. I think it's safe to assume that there are a non-trivial amount of psyops happening on those platforms, since those sites are among the main sources of information for almost all people. It would be foolish to not target such low hanging fruit to manufacture consent if you are trying to influence populations. I would go further and add wikipedia and google results to the list. Conflict of interest edits on wikipedia by companies and legislatures are nothing new. Check out CongressEdits[0] and the slew of bots that it inspired, which enabled monitoring of IP address ranges that edit wikipedia. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CongressEdits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CongressEdits
- boston_clone 5y ago
  > It would be foolish to not target such low hanging fruit to manufacture consent if you are trying to influence populations. While I agree at a conceptual level, I don't believe US Army Psyop to have a hand in any of that. However, the government as a whole is not exempt from that claim - see Operation Mockingbird, for example [0]. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

carabiner 5y ago

How do you feel about psyops deployed domestically, against US citizens? For example, there currently appear to be psyops against worker unions, raising the minimum wage, and the potential for a 4-day work week. Were you experienced in these?

boston_clone 5y ago
> How do you feel about psyops deployed domestically, against US citizens? Short answer is that PsyOp is not used domestically. There are a number of criteria for something to be considered actual factual psyop activity, and a private company attempting to influence US citizens would automatically fall short of those criteria. My work was done exclusively and entirely in Afghanistan.
- verisimi 5y ago
  This is not true. Operation Mockingbird is one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird
- giantg2 5y ago
  Wouldn't it likely be an agency performing domestic PysOps, not the military? And I would guess that it would be TS/SCI or higher, so not really known.
  - jonnybgood 5y ago
    Why assume the government is doing it domestically? Plenty of political organizations and lobby groups exist for this exact purpose.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Well, the fact that the CIA was recently exposed as running a mass domestic surveillance program is pretty good circumstantial evidence. Political/lobby/corporate interests are definitely doing it too. The commercial ones may even be selling it to the government.

IAmGraydon 5y ago

A document with a distribution restriction and destruction instructions on the front page posted by a “former PsyOps guy”. Yeah…I believe you.

zeruch 5y ago
It was hosted on FAS, which had/has a long history of doing such things. Steven Aftergood was its co-founder and his bona fides are quite well known: https://sgp.fas.org/aftergood.html https://sgp.fas.org/aftergood.html
boston_clone 5y ago
Just wait until you find out that my security clearance is now expired and I occasionally browse Wikileaks! Information should be freely accessible. I held that belief long before I joined the military. If you're interested in the SCAME approach, check it out. Baseless accusations about my integrity are uncalled for, though. edit - for what it's worth, my calling it "PsyOp" versus "PsyOps" is a good indicator that I am what I say to be.
- IAmGraydon 5y ago
  We’re all just names on an internet forum. Everything here is baseless. I’m not even saying I doubt you are/were involved in PsyOps. I’m saying I’m not so sure I believe the “ex” part. Anyhow…here’s a question for you. Leading up to Jan 6, it was quite clear to me that someone with PsyOp knowledge was involved with Donald Trump’s Twitter account. Any thoughts or comments on that?
  - boston_clone 5y ago
    If I were still enlisted, I could get in legitimate trouble - like, UCMJ action with hard labor, docked pay, then dishonorable discharge - for the things I've simply read. I wouldn't admit to that if I were still attached. But to your question - could you share a tweet in particular, or a theme before I answer? I'm not entirely sure what you're describing. Most of his tweets seemed from the hip, unpolished, and frankly without any point other than to stir up controversy.

csee 5y ago

Are Putin's nuclear threats a deliberate PsyOp to strike fear into the public so as to reduce calls for help/sanctions?

boston_clone 5y ago
Putin is ex-KGB, so it's probably fair to say that almost any public communication that comes from that state to have a tinge of psyop to it, yes.

zackees 5y ago

ta988 5y ago

Do you have books/publications that you recommend on PsyOps?

mjfl 5y ago

How evil are you, and your past deeds?

boston_clone 5y ago
I don't think anyone is inherently evil, but I can proudly say much of my work was oriented toward humanitarianism and democratic initiatives. Call it cliche, but you do win people over with kindness and decency. We worked to build schools, teach farmers about modern agricultural practices, provided medical services, and let women vote or shop by themselves in the local bazaar without fear. We helped reduce IEDs placed in the area to prevent civilian casualties, encouraged safe driving practices, and worked to convince young kids to stop fighting. I cried when I read that the city in which I lived for a year was recently retaken by the Taliban after we left. I could only hope that the people with which I shared hot tea on cold desert mornings, or potluck style meals, or laughs around a hookah, were able to stay safe. Does any of that sound evil to you?
- johnpeng47 5y ago
  Nice psyop. Lol jk (somewhat). How much would you say the US mission in Afghanistan is influenced by this kind of humanitarian directive vs. some nebulous geopolitical motivations?
  - boston_clone 5y ago
    For a period of time, counterinsurgency doctrine for Afghanistan was entirely based on humanitarianism - i.e. "winning the hearts and minds". We stopped pushing that around the time I was there, as regular Army folks can do a fantastic fucking job of erasing months of progress in one patrol or meeting. I $till haven't landed on a $ati$factory explanation for our geopolitical motivation$ to $tay in Afghani$tan, though.
- TeeMassive 5y ago
  > Call it cliche, but you do win people over with kindness and decency. You are probably familiar with the work of Dale Carnegie. A large part of HN find his work to be overrated and obvious at best, while personally so far I found it enlightening and found that the world would be a better place if people actually followed its advice. What is your opinion on his work?

bgroat 5y ago

How do you hire and trust people to perform PsyOps? Presumably they'd know what levers you're pulling, and they may be able to pull the same levers in YOU. Is it just a pay cheque and finding people who already believe what you believe?

niyikiza 5y ago
I'd imagine the main motivations are similar to those of spies: ego, revenge, money and ideology.
- bgroat 5y ago
  I think you're right
- boston_clone 5y ago
  Hard disagree here, as this job is for enlisted soldiers. Ego and money are out on that alone. Revenge, maybe? But you really don't know where you'll deploy. Ideology... maybe as well? The Army understandably does a pretty good job of obtaining uniformity there. Virtually all of the motivations of folks I knew could be abstracted to "things are truly bad for these people; how can we fix it?".
boston_clone 5y ago
In the context for this post, there is no comparable hiring process or trust factor. There is a certain level of aptitude and physical fitness required, but this job is plain and simple military service with some extra schooling on top (e.g. foreign language, parachuting, etc.) Manipulation and influence can look very similar, and naturally skilled manipulators tend to go elsewhere (I think there's enough research about career preference and correlation of "dark triad" traits to substantiate this). In my experience, most of the enlisted folks doing PsyOp had little idea of what it truly involved when they first began; however, the Army remains eager to redirect the passion of 20 year olds into counterinsurgency / foreign policy tactics.

Sebb767 5y ago

Somewhat off-topic, but does your PsyOp experience help you in Cybersecurity? I imagine it's valuable for social engineering or (possibly) getting management to accept that it's needed.

boston_clone 5y ago
Thanks for asking; I was wanting someone to bring this up. It certainly does help. All too often, great ideas are communicated poorly and end up going nowhere, I think. Knowing how to frame something for a particular audience, or helping people feel like they're heard / acknowledged / part of a team, or seeing through pervasive political fogs, and a bunch of other little skills that really boil down to "good communication" and "psychology" have undeniably helped. Somewhat unfortunately, I'm working on convincing myself that not all persuasive communication is bad!
- nonrandomstring 5y ago
  > I'm working on convincing myself that not all persuasive communication is bad! No problem convincing my guys of this. We start with public health and safety campaigns like the famous Stop. Look. Listen. that ran through the 1970s with Darth Vader actor David Prowse here in the UK. Prowse, who fell out with George Lucas, once said that Vader was not his greatest work as a body actor by any means, but the Green Cross Man, which is estimated to have saved 500,000 children's lives. When I did influence work it was in a similar vein, directed towards the kind of things you'd have no moral objection to, like stopping kids from picking up cluster bombs or preventing rape as a weapon of war. There's plenty of for-good psyops work out there. There's also what I'd call "Counter-Pysops", which is just Intellectual Self-Defence. This can range from training people to spot and deflect phishing or blackmail scams, all the way to message analysis to spot and neutrally evaluate foreign psyops messages.
- electriclizard 5y ago
  >I'm working on convincing myself that not all persuasive communication is bad! By a series of unfortunate events I've been victim to gaslighting from a lot of people in my personal and work lives, so I struggle with this too.

foxhop 5y ago

how do u tell if u r blueteam/target/prey during a pyops training?

raidicy 5y ago

Do you have any suggestions on materials that might aid in critical or strategic thinking? How closely related are PsyOp and Public relations/marketing/communications? Is PsyOp analogous to strategic sophisticated trolling?

graderjs 5y ago

Apart from you, are there other PsyOp people on HN? Any operations? If not, why not? Also, how big is podcasting and youtube? Also, what sort of tasks are "new recruits" put on when they don't have much experience? This is a fascinating AMA :)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kingcharles 5y ago

Beyond the FM you posted, are there any other documents or books you would recommend?

LittleMoveBig 5y ago

Did you ever meet Michael Aquino? Is his paper "From PsyOp to MindWar" widely read?

justatdotin 5y ago

hi, my city is host to rapidly growing (foreign) usa war bases. As an engaged citizen, I notice that local media over the past 10 years have not given this significant change to our town the scrutiny that any similarly sized development would receive. scandals such as sexual assault are reported by outlets in other cities, but not locally. what advice can you share to help me understand what is being done to so effectively manage the otherwise useful local media?

wolverine876 5y ago
Where does the US have rapidly growing "war bases"?
- justatdotin 5y ago
  I live in Darwin. when I moved here last century, NSA were already well established, there were bi-annual R&R USA ship visits, and annual joint airforce training. The USA started to develop a USMC base in 2012 At the time we were instructed that they co-locate and personnel rotate, so you can't call it a base. not a base. definitely not a base. They began permanently locating USAF assets at our airport a coupla years later. They are investing $$big in USAF facilities a few hundred km south AUKUS announcements have included: new bases for five branches of the USA military, including a second USMC MAGTF. - and with that big step they've given up gaslighting locals with insistence that these are not foreign war bases. Suddenly the growth of usa war bases switches from being fake news ('notabase') to not news ('they've been building over ten years').
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    I'm actually aware of (some of) the basing in Darwin. Didn't a military-connected Chinese organization acquire a port there also, maybe back when the US Marines started building? I'm afraid that, given Darwin's location, allied military activity is going to be 'big business'. But the stanadard argument is that China has shown they are going to be aggressive, and that the alliances are much better than facing China alone. But living where a lot of that activity will likely be happening, what is your perspective? The 'good' news for you, perhaps, is that the US's strategy now is not to concentrate in large bases, which can be overrrun by new and future long-range precision missiles, but to spread out on many smaller facilities.

misterdabb 5y ago

Is this itself Psyops? ;)

boston_clone 5y ago
the real fun starts when you consider that everything is! but in all seriousness, no. don't join the Army unless you truly want to dedicate a chunk of your life to an organization like that. be a good neighbor, stay politically informed, vote, take care of your friends, help others in need, create art and support artists, etc.

anigbrowl 5y ago

What do you consider the best NON-FM/TA reference? So many DOD publications seem to be 10% 'military objectives' and 90% 'how to navigate the world's largest bureaucracy.' I tend to find things like monographs from the military's educational institutions a lot more valuable, but then they're narrowly focused which leads to a very fragmented way of looking at things.