5 ms·

Asp.net web forms absolutely sucked. They fundamentally misunderstood HTML and how the internet even worked. Modern Razor's pretty good (not Razor Pages, they

Asp.net web forms absolutely sucked. They fundamentally misunderstood HTML and how the internet even worked. Modern Razor's pretty good (not Razor Pages, they also suck) which is probably what you mean. But it's not that much different from Rails, Laravel, Django, etc.

marcos100 5y ago
By Modern Razor you mean Blazor components?
- UltraViolence 5y ago
  Razor Pages.
hughrr 5y ago
Yes I mean the original version of it. I'd love to watch people attempt to implement some of the stuff I pulled off with that back in the day now. Occasionally, very complex data driven page flows are required and you could nail that entire problem domain trivially with them. There is a very large and well known company with a front-facing product used by millions of people which took 5 years pissing around with three different front end technologies to reimplement what we did in 3 months with that and it was slower and heavier and basically reimplemented web forms in python in the end. It broke the the www intentionally because it sucked. And it still does.
- naasking 5y ago
  Speaking as someone who is still maintaining a web forms app, that sounds like a people problem, not a tech problem. You can implement literally any workflow if you understand continuations, and it will be simpler and more lightweight than web forms. If you don't understand continuations, then you'll struggle and invent all sorts of poor state management patterns. Web forms simplifies some of this because the continuation is captured in viewstate, but it captures too much state (there are other warts too of course).
manigandham 5y ago
What’s wrong with razor pages? They’re fantastically simple and productive. And WebForms wasn't a misunderstanding. It was a deliberate and brilliant design that brought WinForm developers and their experience to the web and allowed them to build complex web apps two decades ago that still work to this day.
- mattmanser 5y ago
  Yeah, and as soon as soon as they tried doing that, they found out it was all superficial and the fact that there was HTTP calls inbetween meant everything started falling over and they saw weird behaviour. And instead of learning how to work with state management in general, they learnt how to work with WebForm's state management instead. I'm working on one of those webforms projects right now, a legacy project that they need some fairly trivial tweaks to and it's an absolute nightmare of bad code. And I've done this before, it's become an accidental skill that I can still fix these awful messes. One of the (many) reasons why webforms and the new Razor Pages are bad is because the code gets split up according to the UI instead of by function. So it gets scattered all over the place and is incredibly hard to do maintenance work on it. The page-centric code layout that Webforms/Razor Pages/all the old PHP/Perl/etc. encourage is also extremely conducive in encouraging copy-and-pasta code for programmers trying to get stuff done asap. So not only is it a nightmare to pick apart the code, you can often fine 2 or 3 copies of the same code that you only discover when one page is working as expected, but the same functionality is used somewhere else but someone just copied the page/control instead of actually splitting the page up into controls and re-using functionality. I've seen this happen over and over and over. A single developer can avoid these pitfalls, a team cannot.
- UltraViolence 5y ago
  WebForms was a complete disaster, made solely to allow Microsoft salesmen to quickly slap together a demo. The problems started when you wanted to put together a REAL application. Because the entire paradigm of a web application programmed like a desktop application was flawed it resulted into an endless stream of headaches and workarounds, with bloated, complex and slow applications as a result. In that sense ASP.NET MVC was a breath of fresh air.
- 5y ago

marcos100 5y ago

By Modern Razor you mean Blazor components?

UltraViolence 5y ago
Razor Pages.

hughrr 5y ago

Yes I mean the original version of it. I'd love to watch people attempt to implement some of the stuff I pulled off with that back in the day now. Occasionally, very complex data driven page flows are required and you could nail that entire problem domain trivially with them. There is a very large and well known company with a front-facing product used by millions of people which took 5 years pissing around with three different front end technologies to reimplement what we did in 3 months with that and it was slower and heavier and basically reimplemented web forms in python in the end. It broke the the www intentionally because it sucked. And it still does.

naasking 5y ago
Speaking as someone who is still maintaining a web forms app, that sounds like a people problem, not a tech problem. You can implement literally any workflow if you understand continuations, and it will be simpler and more lightweight than web forms. If you don't understand continuations, then you'll struggle and invent all sorts of poor state management patterns. Web forms simplifies some of this because the continuation is captured in viewstate, but it captures too much state (there are other warts too of course).

manigandham 5y ago

What’s wrong with razor pages? They’re fantastically simple and productive. And WebForms wasn't a misunderstanding. It was a deliberate and brilliant design that brought WinForm developers and their experience to the web and allowed them to build complex web apps two decades ago that still work to this day.

mattmanser 5y ago
Yeah, and as soon as soon as they tried doing that, they found out it was all superficial and the fact that there was HTTP calls inbetween meant everything started falling over and they saw weird behaviour. And instead of learning how to work with state management in general, they learnt how to work with WebForm's state management instead. I'm working on one of those webforms projects right now, a legacy project that they need some fairly trivial tweaks to and it's an absolute nightmare of bad code. And I've done this before, it's become an accidental skill that I can still fix these awful messes. One of the (many) reasons why webforms and the new Razor Pages are bad is because the code gets split up according to the UI instead of by function. So it gets scattered all over the place and is incredibly hard to do maintenance work on it. The page-centric code layout that Webforms/Razor Pages/all the old PHP/Perl/etc. encourage is also extremely conducive in encouraging copy-and-pasta code for programmers trying to get stuff done asap. So not only is it a nightmare to pick apart the code, you can often fine 2 or 3 copies of the same code that you only discover when one page is working as expected, but the same functionality is used somewhere else but someone just copied the page/control instead of actually splitting the page up into controls and re-using functionality. I've seen this happen over and over and over. A single developer can avoid these pitfalls, a team cannot.
UltraViolence 5y ago
WebForms was a complete disaster, made solely to allow Microsoft salesmen to quickly slap together a demo. The problems started when you wanted to put together a REAL application. Because the entire paradigm of a web application programmed like a desktop application was flawed it resulted into an endless stream of headaches and workarounds, with bloated, complex and slow applications as a result. In that sense ASP.NET MVC was a breath of fresh air.
5y ago