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I think the reason was, we just waltz into Kyev, get greeted as saviors and liberators, maybe shoot Zelenskyy and his circle in the head by mistake, or just mak

I think the reason was, we just waltz into Kyev, get greeted as saviors and liberators, maybe shoot Zelenskyy and his circle in the head by mistake, or just make them disappear, install another friendly ruler (collaborator would be more appropriate, like Kadyrov in Chechnya) and Ukraine will be part of Russia within next few years, or end up as slave without any real autonomy like Belarus. If that's the case, industry mostly in the east would serve much better untouched, same for rest of infrastructure. Why destroy & rebuild when you get it for free and can start draining the country immediately. Bear in mind Russia has huge demographic problems just around the corner, and smart people were running away in droves long before this. All this - truly, hardcore naive. In whole eastern Europe currently busy with refugees efforts, and whole nations would rather risk death than be once again enslaved by them, the memories are still rather fresh. That Russia's foreign actions are (rightfully in this and many other cases) hated as much as Hitler wasn't something leadership could grok in any way. They keep peddling these bigger Russia tales while calling in 10,000 muslim killers from Chechnya on what they claim brotherly slavic nation. You can't fail more morally in the eyes of other slavs. I can't be objective in this topic due to coming from this oppressed region, and tyrant evil persona like Putin doesn't deserve it. Yes there are many, less powerful people like him. I would love to see them be disposed of, stripped away from wealth and power for good. Till now it was a pipe dream, same as watching some narco-baron enjoying his wealth while slowly killing everybody. Now there is at least hope that things may change, and maybe even permanently, at least a bit. And hope is a powerful thing.

vintermann 5y ago
> Why destroy & rebuild when you get it for free and can start draining the country immediately. Also, assuming any of the responsible thought about this beforehand at all (which IS an assumption), they probably expected further economic sanctions of SOME sort from invading. Rebuilding costs money. Rebuilding things like high-tech fighter aircraft costs truly ridiculous amounts of money. There were plenty of reasons they would have hoped to be able to do this all on a modest budget.
- jopsen 5y ago
  > There were plenty of reasons they would have hoped to be able to do this all on a modest budget. Indeed NATO certainly expected Ukrainians to just surrender. Which is probably why they didn't get a no-fly-zone, strategic ambiguity, or other things like that from the US and friends.
  - pydry 5y ago
    That might have had more to do with the threat of nuclear war. The west isnt going to sacrifice itself to save kyiv.
    - jopsen 5y ago
      > That might have had more to do with the threat of nuclear war It's not clear we would have risked nuclear war by selling discounted cruise missiles to Ukraine. But the Ukrainians might have used them prematurely, or surrendered without a fighting chance. Or the US could have just deployed 50k troops to Poland and said "we might interfer in Ukraine". Then Putin might never have invaded. Instead the US said, they would not interfere.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Indeed NATO certainly expected Ukrainians to just surrender. NATO expected (and AFAICT, still expects) Ukraine to be defeated if Putin attacked and wasn't dissuaded by the resulting sanctions from pressing the attack. I don't think they were expected to just surrender.
selimthegrim 5y ago
There was a hue and cry about Ukrainians dipping bullets into salo but seeing as the Chechens got droned by Bayraktars it seems like the Turks don't mind whatever treatment the drones are getting.
- dontthrowawaytr 5y ago
  Using throwaway... Chechens themselves had the same tragedy in Grozny. I don't believe these puppet soldiers have the sympathy of the vast majority of muslim people. While there are many problems like treatment of african students, comments on TV channels mentioning "civilized" part of the world, and not having the public outcry for middle-eastern people(or welcoming arms for refugees), and the topic you mentioned. Anyone I talked to in Turkey supports the struggle of Ukrainian people. Another interesting point is that Russia seems to be recruiting a lot from the Turkic people inside Russia. So Turkish drones are also hitting them. But that doesn't seem to change public opinion. Overall, unfortunately, the Turkish people became geopolitical experts because of all the mess and tragedy around Turkey (Note to reader: Check the map if you don't know Turkey's neighbors). One visible metric is twitter conflict/OSINT account number in Turkish. Most people have a balanced view, but stopping aggression and civilian casualties comes first. Another interesting point is that there are sanctions on some Turkish industries, based on secondary concerns and some lobbying. But, Turkey singlehandedly supported Europe's energy security/ general security(Azerbaijan, Libya, Syrian refugees), balanced Russia(Syria, Libya), supported Ukraine's defense industry long before anyone else. I hope it stops as soon as possible.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    I would think Crimean Tatars on Ukrainian side (and Lipka Tatars if any show up from Poland) aren't too bothered about Chechen feelings.
- redisman 5y ago
  Why would they? The Turkish economy is in shambles and this is amazing PR for their arms manufacturing. I’d imagine those drones will be sold out for years to come
- 5y ago

vintermann 5y ago

> Why destroy & rebuild when you get it for free and can start draining the country immediately. Also, assuming any of the responsible thought about this beforehand at all (which IS an assumption), they probably expected further economic sanctions of SOME sort from invading. Rebuilding costs money. Rebuilding things like high-tech fighter aircraft costs truly ridiculous amounts of money. There were plenty of reasons they would have hoped to be able to do this all on a modest budget.

jopsen 5y ago
> There were plenty of reasons they would have hoped to be able to do this all on a modest budget. Indeed NATO certainly expected Ukrainians to just surrender. Which is probably why they didn't get a no-fly-zone, strategic ambiguity, or other things like that from the US and friends.
- pydry 5y ago
  That might have had more to do with the threat of nuclear war. The west isnt going to sacrifice itself to save kyiv.
  - jopsen 5y ago
    > That might have had more to do with the threat of nuclear war It's not clear we would have risked nuclear war by selling discounted cruise missiles to Ukraine. But the Ukrainians might have used them prematurely, or surrendered without a fighting chance. Or the US could have just deployed 50k troops to Poland and said "we might interfer in Ukraine". Then Putin might never have invaded. Instead the US said, they would not interfere.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Indeed NATO certainly expected Ukrainians to just surrender. NATO expected (and AFAICT, still expects) Ukraine to be defeated if Putin attacked and wasn't dissuaded by the resulting sanctions from pressing the attack. I don't think they were expected to just surrender.

selimthegrim 5y ago

There was a hue and cry about Ukrainians dipping bullets into salo but seeing as the Chechens got droned by Bayraktars it seems like the Turks don't mind whatever treatment the drones are getting.

dontthrowawaytr 5y ago
Using throwaway... Chechens themselves had the same tragedy in Grozny. I don't believe these puppet soldiers have the sympathy of the vast majority of muslim people. While there are many problems like treatment of african students, comments on TV channels mentioning "civilized" part of the world, and not having the public outcry for middle-eastern people(or welcoming arms for refugees), and the topic you mentioned. Anyone I talked to in Turkey supports the struggle of Ukrainian people. Another interesting point is that Russia seems to be recruiting a lot from the Turkic people inside Russia. So Turkish drones are also hitting them. But that doesn't seem to change public opinion. Overall, unfortunately, the Turkish people became geopolitical experts because of all the mess and tragedy around Turkey (Note to reader: Check the map if you don't know Turkey's neighbors). One visible metric is twitter conflict/OSINT account number in Turkish. Most people have a balanced view, but stopping aggression and civilian casualties comes first. Another interesting point is that there are sanctions on some Turkish industries, based on secondary concerns and some lobbying. But, Turkey singlehandedly supported Europe's energy security/ general security(Azerbaijan, Libya, Syrian refugees), balanced Russia(Syria, Libya), supported Ukraine's defense industry long before anyone else. I hope it stops as soon as possible.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  I would think Crimean Tatars on Ukrainian side (and Lipka Tatars if any show up from Poland) aren't too bothered about Chechen feelings.
redisman 5y ago
Why would they? The Turkish economy is in shambles and this is amazing PR for their arms manufacturing. I’d imagine those drones will be sold out for years to come
5y ago