4 ms·

I don't have any first-hand knowledge of what the Kytch device did. But nothing I've read about it ever gave me the impression that it was overriding lockouts.

I don't have any first-hand knowledge of what the Kytch device did. But nothing I've read about it ever gave me the impression that it was overriding lockouts. It was intended as a remote monitoring device and troubleshooting tool. For example, instead of an employee having to read a pattern of blinking lights on the machine itself, a franchise owner might receive an email that says "soft serve machine cleaning required" and send somebody to take care of it.

ojosilva 5y ago
Regardless, like I said, the Kytch box (a Raspberry Pi) is overriding the code that accesses the secret menu of the ice-cream machines [1]. That's outside the intended operation. And that's liability if McD knows about it and says nothing. The machine produces food that goes into people's bodies. Ie, if it were to produce a poisonous glycol ice-cream (glycol one of the pasteurization ingredients) all of a sudden, even if it has nothing to do with what Kytch is intended to do, could you really 100% discard in front of a judge that a glitch or a hack in the Kytch's linux computer, which is btw connected to the internet, didn't order the ice-cream machine to do that which, as a consequence, killed a hypothetical 5-year old kid from food poisoning? Imagine McD is now Boeing and the Kytch box is something airlines found that make 737-MAX fly safer by plugging into and overriding the system codes so that it can warn pilots of possible 737-MAX issues... Does it make sense for Boeing to allow such thing even if it makes planes safer? [1] https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-makers-started-cold-war/ https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-...
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Wow, you are going to be horrified when you find out what goes on inside a family-run restaurant or food cart. They actually make food using humans.
  - mbg721 5y ago
    If they like you, they mostly keep humans out of the ingredients, though.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    That is the difference between family business and industrial food production. The cleaning products used in small restaurants are basically harmless. A little bleach residue in someone's food will taste horrible but probably won't kill anyone. Glycol tastes like sugar. It very much will do harm if it leaks into the food. But using glycol allows a food producer to reduce labor costs via automation, automation being a bright line between mom-and-pop burger bars serving perhaps 10 customers per hour and a busy MacDonald's location serving 500.
    - stickfigure 5y ago
      As a sibling comment mentioned, polypropylene glycol <> ethylene glycol. Polypropylene glycol is an FDA approved food additive and one of the main ingredients of vape fluid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  Wow, you're really going to hate how people mod their cars. At some point we have to ignore hypotheticals because they are too divorced from what is actually happening. Case in point, when someone mods their car it is not somehow the manufacturer's responsibility for a crash. It fails the pre-hearing test of "can we even have a lawsuit about this" if someone even tries to bring it up.
- tfvlrue 5y ago
  Again, I have no first-hand experience with this device so I can only infer things from the articles and documents we have available. I fear I am being overly pedantic here, but to me, "override" implies that the device is circumventing sensor readings or physical interlocks or something similar to manipulate the machine's mechanisms to doing something they weren't intended to. However, I've see no indication of that. The device is described as, essentially, a second control panel. Anything the Kytch device can do is something an operator could already do by pushing buttons on the factory-installed control panel. The difference is that it interprets the data to be easier to understand, and provides remote monitoring. It's really no different than plugging a ScanGauge into a car's ODB-II port. The ScanGauge can tell you all sorts of things about the state of the engine, but it isn't going to stop the brakes from working. I remember reading that Wired article when it first came out. Near the beginning, it says: > As O'Sullivan says, this menu isn’t documented in any owner's manual for the Taylor digital ice cream machines This is demonstrably false. It's clearly documented on page 22 of the service manual: https://static-pt.com/modelManual/TAF-C602_spm.pdf https://static-pt.com/modelManual/TAF-C602_spm.pdf Frankly, the manuals Taylor has made for these machines are quite thorough and well written. The claims from the article about how this is "secret" and "undisclosed" seem disingenuous when a simple Google search reveals evidence to the contrary. I suppose one could argue that a "service manual" is not an "owner's manual", but that seems overly pedantic (even to me!).
  - everforward 5y ago
    > This is demonstrably false. It's clearly documented on page 22 of the service manual: https://static-pt.com/modelManual/TAF-C602_spm.pdf https://static-pt.com/modelManual/TAF-C602_spm.pdf I can't find it from Taylor, though. I think the point they're making with the "secret" is that the manufacturer won't give them to you. The 3rd party copies are likely illegal; I would presume the service manual is copyrighted. > Anything the Kytch device can do is something an operator could already do by pushing buttons on the factory-installed control panel. The difference is that it interprets the data to be easier to understand, and provides remote monitoring. It does allow access to things that users weren't meant to be able to access, and some of them are dangerous. E.g. you can change the temperature of the boil cycle down to something too low to kill bacteria. > It's really no different than plugging a ScanGauge into a car's ODB-II port. The ScanGauge can tell you all sorts of things about the state of the engine, but it isn't going to stop the brakes from working. The ScanGauge can't actually change any parameters, afaik. This is closer to replacing the ECU. It gives you more data on what you car is doing, but also gives you the option to tune the engine. You can either make it more efficient, or you can destroy the engine, depending on how you tune the settings. Except in this case, "destroy the engine" roughly translates to "give a bunch of people listeria infections". In my opinion, it's unreasonable for McDonald's to block off access to the data, but it is reasonable for them to not want franchisee's to be able to change parameters like the boil temperature, or how frequently cleanings need to be done (which is another parameter in that secret menu). The whole situation is a mess, because I can't see a way to allow access to the data without access to the whole secret menu, other than replacing all the hardware. I think I saw McDonald's trying to sell their own device on that front; likely because then they can ensure that the parameters aren't exposed. The C602 was released in 2003 afaict. I don't think this was a malicious decision so much as no one in 2003 predicting that it would be beneficial (or cost-effective) to have a WiFi/Bluetooth remote data port. That was 4 years before the iPhone, and interestingly, also only 5 years after the first consumer bluetooth device was unveiled. I don't find it shocking that a behemoth like McDonald's isn't putting nascent technology in an ice cream machine they plan to use for decades.
- aurizon 5y ago
  Chemist here. The use of propylene glycol in the clean/sterilize cycle is OK, it is related to 3 carbon glycerol and is not toxic and any breakdown product(glycerol) is safe and edible. Ethylene glycol, a 2 carbon polyol, is metabolized to poisonous oxalic acid and 1000's of pets and other animals are killed every year. Most states require Bitrex, a very foul tasting additive to be added to various products people/animals might eat. https://www.bitrex.com/ https://www.bitrex.com/ There is a pet safe antifreeze based on Propylene Glycol, which I use, that is a good antifreeze and not toxic. So save a pet/animal https://safeantifreeze.com/ https://safeantifreeze.com/

ojosilva 5y ago

Regardless, like I said, the Kytch box (a Raspberry Pi) is overriding the code that accesses the secret menu of the ice-cream machines [1]. That's outside the intended operation. And that's liability if McD knows about it and says nothing. The machine produces food that goes into people's bodies. Ie, if it were to produce a poisonous glycol ice-cream (glycol one of the pasteurization ingredients) all of a sudden, even if it has nothing to do with what Kytch is intended to do, could you really 100% discard in front of a judge that a glitch or a hack in the Kytch's linux computer, which is btw connected to the internet, didn't order the ice-cream machine to do that which, as a consequence, killed a hypothetical 5-year old kid from food poisoning? Imagine McD is now Boeing and the Kytch box is something airlines found that make 737-MAX fly safer by plugging into and overriding the system codes so that it can warn pilots of possible 737-MAX issues... Does it make sense for Boeing to allow such thing even if it makes planes safer? [1] https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-makers-started-cold-war/ https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-...

stickfigure 5y ago
Wow, you are going to be horrified when you find out what goes on inside a family-run restaurant or food cart. They actually make food using humans.
- mbg721 5y ago
  If they like you, they mostly keep humans out of the ingredients, though.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  That is the difference between family business and industrial food production. The cleaning products used in small restaurants are basically harmless. A little bleach residue in someone's food will taste horrible but probably won't kill anyone. Glycol tastes like sugar. It very much will do harm if it leaks into the food. But using glycol allows a food producer to reduce labor costs via automation, automation being a bright line between mom-and-pop burger bars serving perhaps 10 customers per hour and a busy MacDonald's location serving 500.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    As a sibling comment mentioned, polypropylene glycol <> ethylene glycol. Polypropylene glycol is an FDA approved food additive and one of the main ingredients of vape fluid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol
R0b0t1 5y ago
Wow, you're really going to hate how people mod their cars. At some point we have to ignore hypotheticals because they are too divorced from what is actually happening. Case in point, when someone mods their car it is not somehow the manufacturer's responsibility for a crash. It fails the pre-hearing test of "can we even have a lawsuit about this" if someone even tries to bring it up.
tfvlrue 5y ago
Again, I have no first-hand experience with this device so I can only infer things from the articles and documents we have available. I fear I am being overly pedantic here, but to me, "override" implies that the device is circumventing sensor readings or physical interlocks or something similar to manipulate the machine's mechanisms to doing something they weren't intended to. However, I've see no indication of that. The device is described as, essentially, a second control panel. Anything the Kytch device can do is something an operator could already do by pushing buttons on the factory-installed control panel. The difference is that it interprets the data to be easier to understand, and provides remote monitoring. It's really no different than plugging a ScanGauge into a car's ODB-II port. The ScanGauge can tell you all sorts of things about the state of the engine, but it isn't going to stop the brakes from working. I remember reading that Wired article when it first came out. Near the beginning, it says: > As O'Sullivan says, this menu isn’t documented in any owner's manual for the Taylor digital ice cream machines This is demonstrably false. It's clearly documented on page 22 of the service manual: https://static-pt.com/modelManual/TAF-C602_spm.pdf https://static-pt.com/modelManual/TAF-C602_spm.pdf Frankly, the manuals Taylor has made for these machines are quite thorough and well written. The claims from the article about how this is "secret" and "undisclosed" seem disingenuous when a simple Google search reveals evidence to the contrary. I suppose one could argue that a "service manual" is not an "owner's manual", but that seems overly pedantic (even to me!).
- everforward 5y ago
  > This is demonstrably false. It's clearly documented on page 22 of the service manual: https://static-pt.com/modelManual/TAF-C602_spm.pdf https://static-pt.com/modelManual/TAF-C602_spm.pdf I can't find it from Taylor, though. I think the point they're making with the "secret" is that the manufacturer won't give them to you. The 3rd party copies are likely illegal; I would presume the service manual is copyrighted. > Anything the Kytch device can do is something an operator could already do by pushing buttons on the factory-installed control panel. The difference is that it interprets the data to be easier to understand, and provides remote monitoring. It does allow access to things that users weren't meant to be able to access, and some of them are dangerous. E.g. you can change the temperature of the boil cycle down to something too low to kill bacteria. > It's really no different than plugging a ScanGauge into a car's ODB-II port. The ScanGauge can tell you all sorts of things about the state of the engine, but it isn't going to stop the brakes from working. The ScanGauge can't actually change any parameters, afaik. This is closer to replacing the ECU. It gives you more data on what you car is doing, but also gives you the option to tune the engine. You can either make it more efficient, or you can destroy the engine, depending on how you tune the settings. Except in this case, "destroy the engine" roughly translates to "give a bunch of people listeria infections". In my opinion, it's unreasonable for McDonald's to block off access to the data, but it is reasonable for them to not want franchisee's to be able to change parameters like the boil temperature, or how frequently cleanings need to be done (which is another parameter in that secret menu). The whole situation is a mess, because I can't see a way to allow access to the data without access to the whole secret menu, other than replacing all the hardware. I think I saw McDonald's trying to sell their own device on that front; likely because then they can ensure that the parameters aren't exposed. The C602 was released in 2003 afaict. I don't think this was a malicious decision so much as no one in 2003 predicting that it would be beneficial (or cost-effective) to have a WiFi/Bluetooth remote data port. That was 4 years before the iPhone, and interestingly, also only 5 years after the first consumer bluetooth device was unveiled. I don't find it shocking that a behemoth like McDonald's isn't putting nascent technology in an ice cream machine they plan to use for decades.
aurizon 5y ago
Chemist here. The use of propylene glycol in the clean/sterilize cycle is OK, it is related to 3 carbon glycerol and is not toxic and any breakdown product(glycerol) is safe and edible. Ethylene glycol, a 2 carbon polyol, is metabolized to poisonous oxalic acid and 1000's of pets and other animals are killed every year. Most states require Bitrex, a very foul tasting additive to be added to various products people/animals might eat. https://www.bitrex.com/ https://www.bitrex.com/ There is a pet safe antifreeze based on Propylene Glycol, which I use, that is a good antifreeze and not toxic. So save a pet/animal https://safeantifreeze.com/ https://safeantifreeze.com/