7 ms·

Learning the hard way: Moving from NYC to Palo Alto and back in 1.5 months

120 points by joshwprinceton 15y ago

jakejake 15y ago
That sucks, I have known people like "Ted" and have learned that any bit of flakiness early on (when you should be trying to impress each other) is a bad sign. 1.5 months is not a long time, though, keep at it!
- trevelyan 15y ago
  "While waiting for Ted, there wasn’t much real work that I could do and my morale declined… my mind started to wander" If the founder wasn't working on the product, why should anyone want to work with him?
  - joshwprinceton 15y ago
    There wasn't much real work I could do on the product in the state that we were in, because we were thinking about completely re-architecting it when he came on. Also, I agree with what you are alluding to -- if you aren't touching the product, then you probably aren't that much value-add. Personally, though I've demonstrated the ability to be value-add and was working on some key deals...we just never had the product to close them.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Thanks for the support Jake!
Bartlet 15y ago
Why don't you just learn to code?
- sp332 15y ago
  Solid bi-directional video streaming isn't the kind of thing you can just "pick up" by reading a book or taking a class.
  - joshwprinceton 15y ago
    Yup, that's the problem.
    - hugacow 15y ago
      The problem to me is that the technical parts of a tech startup are usually more than 50% of the company. Maybe it is even 90%. You write the blog post and pose as if you had something. What did you have really? If getting this guy was critical to success and the reason you moved, I think you should focus more on how in the heck you got into the position to consider moving in the first place, i.e. a combination of bad advice from investors that weren't good advisors and you taking that advice. The critical mistake happened when you decided to move out there, not because of the red flags you mentioned. Those were secondary imo.
      - sp332 15y ago
        Actually finding investors and advisors and getting them on board with the project is a big deal. And apparently finding a good CTO takes a lot of time and effort as well.
        joshwprinceton 15y ago
        Major lesson learned -- getting investors and advisors doesn't get you a good CTO
        hugacow 15y ago
        One word: vaporware.
      - joshwprinceton 15y ago
        All valid comments -- I think that ultimately team is the most important, followed by product, which is why I moved, and we were basically doing a reset. We had stuff without him, but I wanted to build the company around him/me rather than the team we had...but agreed in part, for sure
  - 15y ago
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  I can code in rails...what we are doing is a bit on the complicated side, though, as per the other comment
nateberkopec 15y ago
This is what happens when you're a non-technical founder - you become desperately dependent on others, and when they fall through, you can't do any meaningful work (Josh describes what sounds like just reading some blogs and 'thinking' while Ted leaves him on the hook). Sometimes it works, of course, when the CTO you depend on actually is an awesome coder/architect, but you've essentially just increased your startups possibilities for failure with the same amount of upside as if you were just a technical founder in the first place. I've noticed this dependency of non-technical founders on a "ninja rockstar CTO" is much more acceptable in the NYC startup community than the Valley.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  100% agree Nate - not a good position to be in.
  - durga 15y ago
    and so maybe a good alternate strategy is to prove your business/sales/accounting worth to a technical founder/team that's working on a startup and join them.
- rebel19 15y ago
  Ideas are a dime a dozen, and there are some investors who will be duped by non-technical types and throw money at it but the solid businesses are founded by people who can actually execute the idea........sounds like this startup might be headed for the dead pool.
tptacek 15y ago
Not sure what signed employment contracts have to do with someone flaking on starting a job. Guy doesn't want to work for you, he's not going to work for you. No contract in the world changes that. Companies that give out 5-figure signing bonuses still lose people to better offers. That's life in the big leagues. You don't make yourself look better by slagging people for doing something that everybody does. If you want to pick this apart, I'd be interested in knowing the whole story. What was the comp package you offered him?
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Significant, significant equity, co-founder CTO for venture-backed company.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    I know you can't reasonably say what % you offered (you're still apparently a going concern), but know that people on HN are pretty accustomed to b-school types and their notions of what "significant equity" are. Again though, the top line here is, we're in the middle of a tech bubble, there are a lot of venture-backed companies, most of them are going to fail, tech comp packages have never ever been higher, competition is fierce, aggressive, and protracted. There has never been a worse time to assume you've got talent locked up. I'm sympathetic to the idea that someone who isn't 100% sold shouldn't represent themselves as 100% sold. BUT. Oftentimes, we don't demand of others the frank answers we don't want to hear. How many serious sit-down conversations did you have with your potential partner about his commitment level? Your post is "Red flag!" "Red Flag!" "Warning sign!". Well, did you react to any of those flags? If you didn't: I appreciate the idea of writing a post about the warning signs you've learned people should be looking for. However, if you ignored warning signs that the guy wasn't committed, it becomes harder to sympathize with the idea of a blog post designed to slag one guy for not signing on with your company. If you did react to the warning signs and diligently qualified and re-qualified this guy and he kept coming back saying "absolutely I am one hundred fifty percent behind you": I agree you got shafted a bit, but again remind you that tech people mostly don't give a shit. A guy who can execute on the level you're saying you needed can simply write his own ticket. The game theory suggests that you have little to gain by lashing out. ((I'm having a really procrastinate-y morning, which comes from knowing I'm working super late tonight, so sorry I'm being so noisy. At least you're not on the logo design thread I'm howling at.*)
pmdan 15y ago
Who on earth is voting this up?
Bartlet 15y ago
I wouldn't focus so exclusively on someone who specializes in bi-directional video. Given the somewhat desperate nature of your situation, that seems too narrow. Just try to find a kick-ass hacker and assume that he can quickly learn the finer points of your niche.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  I think that applies in most cases, and it may in this, but as per some of the other comments, significant video streaming experience (if not bi-directional) is sort of a prerequisite for being able to do what we are doing.
MatthewB 15y ago
This type of stuff happens all the time. It is the result of completely depending on a technical cofounder. Never, ever do that. This happened to me with one of my products. I am a hacker but the level of expertise the product needed was beyond what I had to offer. After a certain point in the development process, I was completely dependent on my partner. He never delivered anything on time and finally just stopped working on it when a paying client came around (although I offered to pay him many times). Now, when I pursue something new, I make sure I can build it myself even if I do find someone I want to work with.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Totally with you Matthew. That was one of my main concerns going into the project -- that we were getting in a little over our head with the tech. We were building on top of another API which was supposed to be relatively plug and play, but turns out we spent almost all of our time (about 6 months) working with them to fix it...that's when I realized that we needed a superstar...lesson learned == exactly what you said, though, thanks for the comment!
  - MatthewB 15y ago
    Josh - the part that resonated with me the most is your developer keeping you waiting and pushing back deadlines with poor excuses. Like you said, these are big red flags. You mentioned getting sidetracked by learning rails instead of meeting more people, but I disagree with you on that. You should have kept at it learning rails! Developers want to work with other developers, so just by showing you have the drive to learn coding AND have the business skills needed for a startup proves a lot about your personality to potential tech cofounders. Edit: you should have stayed in the valley. You'd be surprised how quickly you would be right back in the saddle of pushing your startup. I moved here 3 months ago and it was the best decision of my life, I just wish I made the decision sooner. Come on back when you're ready.
    - joshwprinceton 15y ago
      True true, I wouldn't say sidetracked, my rails is decent enough, I was just in a very confused state. I think you make a perfectly valid point about Palo Alto - Davis/my support network is here for the current venture, but I wouldn't be opposed to heading back out there. Congrats on heading out there and making the jump :)
atarian 15y ago
>I let Ted’s former CEOs [the one who hesitated on ‘dishonesty’ word association] know what happened I don't think this was a good idea. As you mentioned the warnings and red flags were all there but you didn't heed them. It's pretty clear that your awe of this guy was clouding your sense of judgement: "... disappointed because of how much of an impact Ted would have had in taking us to the next level."
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  I assumed it was just sort of an awkward parting of ways. I think you are spot on though in your assessment
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
overgryphon 15y ago
Honestly, it seems rather childish to have published something designed to bash another, with little more than a nod in the direction of your own responsibility for the situation. Perhaps in the future you should consider projects that you can work on yourself without being too dependent on others.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  a) I wasn't bashing someone else, I didn't even put the person's name or any real indicator as to who it is, nor did I send it to them b) I completely agree
- dannyr 15y ago
  "Perhaps in the future you should consider projects that you can work on yourself without being too dependent on others." How can you build a real company without being too dependent on others?
Thrymr 15y ago
I have to admit that I don't understand this whole "find a technical co-founder" thing. This isn't like just hiring an employee, you have to be full partners and both "all in" on the project. If you don't already have a relationship before you start, you need to build one before you take the leap. And I particularly don't get how "non-technical" co-founders think they can run the show, when they don't have the expertise to do it themselves.
dustineichler 15y ago
How do you get funding without a product? I see this all the time with MBA students fresh out of school. It's pretty annoying. Also, If this doesn't have the makings of someone who saw "The Social Network" and moved to Palo Alto I don't know what does. You ran at the first sign of Failure with a capital F. That doesn't bode well. Josh, shit is going to happen. Learn to roll with the punches. PA is a startup haven because it's boring, there's nothing to do there but focus on building things. That's to bad things went down the way they did, that's unfortunate. Startups are a dedication game, in my mind at least. You should read this as encouragement next time you encounter difficultly.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  We had multiple products and were pivoting to a new product. I don't have an MBA and got initial seed money because of a product I coded myself, and then additional funds based on the success we had with that initial seed funding.
dr_ 15y ago
The title of the article suggests that it was a mistake to leave NYC for Palo Alto, but there is nothing in the article which suggests Palo Alto was the problem. You may as well have titled this article "I got screwed by a guy named Ted". It would probably still have been easier to move forward and develop your app in the Valley. I've been to General Assembly and it's a nice venue and I hope it continues to grown. But you can't suggest that the interactions and people you will meet there will compare to they types of advisors, investors, developers and potential CTO's you would have met in the Valley, or even just in Palo Alto.
- jsherry 15y ago
  If he titled the article "I got screwed by a guy named Ted", it might have been suggestive of something different.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Very good point dr_ -- it really wasn't Palo Alto, per se, it was entirely about the technical/personnel issues -- I like your title suggestion :D :D
- tedjdziuba 15y ago
  For the record, I had nothing to do with this.
- chugger 15y ago
  does Ted know we're talking about him?
  - joshwprinceton 15y ago
    I don't think so
blhack 15y ago
Could somebody please explain this recent trend of "make your blog posts as skinny as possible"? Does this have something to do with iPhones? Is this the web-design equivalent of bumping the font size on a paper to make it look longer than it actually is? Is there a reason people do this? It's incredibly annoying.
- saalweachter 15y ago
  Some usability studies have claimed that narrow columns are easier to read. Personally I kind of like it, although it makes me feel sad for my wide-screen monitors.
  - joshwprinceton 15y ago
    Saal is right -- narrow columns are easier to read because you don't have to move your eyes as much. Really wide columns make you move your head. It's a bit weird, but apparently it's what the cool kids are doing...so I did it too lol
- jcc80 15y ago
  I read a statistic that 68 characters across is optimal. Don't recall where but I just go with it.
zach 15y ago
- Startup founders almost by definition have unreasonable ambition -- a level of interest that exceeds their actual capacity. - The best people to work with on a project are very dedicated to their commitments and are placed in positions where their dedication is a priority. - People unfailingly place a higher priority on commitments that are existing, concrete, regular, place-oriented and are reinforced by the most social pressure from people they know well and interact with the most. (1) So this is just what happens, I think. I've totally seen this before, both been the person that had to say "no" (many, many times), "I guess I can try helping you out for an hour a day" (never enough) and "I guess I can help" (when a friend's technical co-founder was swamped for months at their day job - again, it's hard to replace a full-time commitment). I really think that this was a good person to get with, they honestly wanted to do this, and they thought they could swing it if they made the commitment. But again, that's their ambition talking. Their dedication was stuck at their existing job. I can't imagine the stress this caused both of you and I hope you both move on wiser and more motivated from this. 1. This is why seemingly every company wants people to work on-site.
- zach 15y ago
  Yikes, this was the original version of my post above (I love to re-edit) and now it's too late to delete it. HN was having some problems when I was posting it, which must be why it's not on my threads page. If an editor can delete it, that'd be appreciated. But so that this comment isn't content-free, let me tell you where I first saw a project in the "cycle of despair" I mentioned in a reply above. It's Daikatana. I worked on the legendarily-late PC game in late 1999 as a contract programmer. It was basically this kind of syndrome, trickling down through the development team. John Romero was and has always been extremely ambitious and enthusiastic. He promised way more than the team he could round up was able to deliver. And that's understandable simply because he had a standard of technological feasibility that was based on John Carmack. That'll skew anybody's perspective. Okay, it was also ludicrous to base the game in four entirely distinct environments. But I think the basic problem was this cycle of overambition leading to overpromising leading to overcommitment leading to overstressed developers.
zach 15y ago
I see three contributing factors here. - Startup founders almost by definition have unreasonable ambition – a level of interest, motivation and excitement that exceeds their actual capacity. - The best people to work with on a project are very dedicated to their commitments and are placed in positions where their dedication is a priority. - People naturally place a higher priority on commitments that are existing, concrete, regular, place-oriented and are reinforced by the most social pressure from people they know well and interact with most frequently. (1) So, you get this. I've totally seen this before, not only having to be the one to say "no" (many, many times) and "I guess I can try working on it for an hour a day" (never enough) but even "wow, sorry, let me try to help" (when a friend's technical co-founder was swamped for months at their day job - again, it's hard to replace an expert or a full-time commitment). I really think that this was a good person to get with, they honestly wanted to do this, and they thought they could swing it if they made the commitment. But again, that's their ambition talking. Their dedication was stuck at their existing job. I can't imagine the stress this caused both of you and I hope you both move on wiser and more motivated from this. 1. This is why every company wants people on-site, of course.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Thanks for your insight zach -- completely agree with your assessments on entrepreneurs and the importance of being together on-site
  - zach 15y ago
    Thanks for bringing this topic up. This is a real and serious issue that isn't talked about much. But I should mention one more thing in greater detail, because it's crazy important. If there's one warning I would give to every potential technical co-founder and those who work with them, it's this. It's the very same motivation that drives the dedication of many developers — not to disappoint people depending on them — that often leads to a cycle of despair. Since developers are enthusiastic and don't want to disappoint people they've already made commitments to, they often choose to accept an easier form of cognitive dissonance over another. That is, they prefer to believe that they will make crazy things happen instead of accepting that they made a commitment they can't deliver on (even for perfectly understandable reasons). So they offer an overly-optimistic outlook or overcommit themselves as a result. They're not being knowingly dishonest as much as believing in something unrealistic. This pathology often starts with procrastination in school and can manifest itself like an addiction: it builds and builds until the individual either hits bottom (the stress is finally too much) or there's an intervention (they are confronted with a reality check or given an out). Be extremely careful about this because it is the epidemic of software (where estimation is difficult enough if you're completely rational, possibilities are great and heroic feats are legendary). Always be on guard and try to prevent this cycle from happening, because if it takes over an organization, things will begin turning in a Yeatsian gyre.
davidandgoliath 15y ago
Curious: Why move back? You sounded as though you were enjoying the West far more -- getting outdoors more, meeting lots of people, etc. As much as you were like a fish out of water it sounded like a period of solid growth for you. I'd have stuck it out further :)
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Yeah I think it would have been nice to stay out there, but my last team member was in NYC, as well as a nice support network (investors, free rent [living at home], friends). I might go back out there at some point :)
  - davidandgoliath 15y ago
    Challenge breeds reward. I often wonder whether I'd have a company with ~2,000 clients if I had stayed at home. The most likely answer is no. Eating ramen amongst cardboard box furniture pushed me like nothing else could.
aespinoza 15y ago
I love the article. Thanks for sharing. I have been there before and it sucks. I think the biggest take-away for me was this line: "early on, it’s about commitment, honesty, and trust." And that is why I decided to embark on an startup adventure with my best friends.
Hisoka 15y ago
I echo the sentiments of those that say you shouldn't have gone to a space that was way above your technical competence if you don't have an existing relationship with a tech person. I know that limits your options but there are still ideas that are more appropriate for someone like you. Ideas like Groupon which rely more on commerce know-how rather than technical competence. Or a site like BusinessInsider, which can easily be done using Wordpress or open source solutions
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  We had a few tech people and were building on a platform we thought was stable...it wasn't and that's what motivated me to try and find an A+ player. That's definitely a lesson learned for the future though, so agreed
trustfundbaby 15y ago
You know what I like about this guy ... his attitude when things go wrong. No wallowing in self pity, just quick and firm decisions about what to do next ... very awesome read and a great lesson to learn.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Thanks man. To be honest, I wallowed in self pity in private for a few days ;). One of my advisors gave me some good advice right after it happened which made me get back to business "get over it." Surprisingly effective :D
- dannyr 15y ago
  I agree with him not wallowing in self pity but it seems that his decision to move back to NY was hasty. I'm not saying he should have stayed in PA but should have at least spent more time exploring his options here in the Valley. I know so many developers here that are looking for good product/business people to partner with. There are a lot of product/business people here but most of them have just an idea and looking for somebody to execute them without much to offer anything in return.. I felt that Josh is one of the exceptions and would have found a good technical co-founder here.
  - zem 15y ago
    well, at least from the post he sounded like he didn't really want to leave nyc in the first place, and the only reason he moved to palo alto was because ted was there.
YuriNiyazov 15y ago
stuy hs holler
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  yupyup!
  - cdk 15y ago
    Another Stuy alum here and was a stuycom fan. Hang in there.
  - shurane 15y ago
    Hey, maybe you can find a technical co-founder from Stuy. You could probably get in touch with Zamansky and see how that works. Lot of good talent there, as you should know.
    - joshwprinceton 15y ago
      Good call, Z is the man
inXS68 15y ago
another princeton guy who wants to be successful. stay at goldman sachs
commanda 15y ago
Why would you move back to NYC from the bay area? Having just made the move from SF to NYC myself (for personal reasons, although it's been working out professionally so far as well), I feel like the bay is really the place to be for the non-technical cofounder looking for their bad-ass CTO. NYC is absolutely flooded with non-technical cofounders like the OP - it's really a buyer's market in that sense. For me, as a technical cofounder, I'm definitely in the minority here and I can feel the desperation in the voices of all these non-technical people with their "great ideas, just need a CTO". I want to tell them all to move to the bay because there aren't enough of me to go around in NYC.
ap22213 15y ago
When did it become cool to post one's own blog article? Seems like a slippery slope to spam hell.
- kgermino 15y ago
  Feb. 19, 2007 Original content is a big part of what makes this site so great, having someone submit their story then be available to comment on the ensuing discussion dramatically raises the bar for quality of conversation. Yes sometimes this crosses the line into spam, but if you feel that an article is all spam then flag it, don't up vote it, and the community will decide.
pramanat 15y ago
Josh, you might want to look at the Tokbox API to get the MVP out: http://www.tokbox.com/opentok/api http://www.tokbox.com/opentok/api
johngalt 15y ago
To the author; If you're having trouble finding specifically "bi-directional video" guys you may want to expand your search to VoIP devs. Many of the challenges are the same, and the protocols. It is also likely that they will have more experience. A lot of large telcos have dropped big money on VoIP over the last decade. So there's a larger pool of talent available to draw from. Also, consider the tone of your post, and your attitude in general. Devs have "Red Flags" we look for as well. You give off several. Consider that many people on this board have the skills your looking for, and/or know someone who does. Pay attention to what you are telling us.
- nickfromseattle 15y ago
  What are the author's red flags?
  - johngalt 15y ago
    "don’t let go of key team members for replacements until the replacement starts" Not an inspiring message to future key team members. "We begun parting ways with our developers, started to wind down most of our NYC operations" So the next smart dev is in Bangalore, guess that means he'll shut it all down again right? "The highs and lows continued. I realized we shouldn’t support a full production operation until our product was completely done, tested, etc." Better to think about what you absolutely require compared to the resources you have to 'fully complete' them. "That Friday, I let Ted know that we need to trim down the team further..." Then Ted quit the following day with a nice email detailing how things had changed in the last 36 hours and the ways he'd like to help him recruit a few engineers read between the lines. "the single most unprofessional thing I have ever heard of" Sending a nice resignation letter is the worst they have ever heard of? Frankly 90% of this post is detailing poor business and hiring decisions. Then blaming Ted for poor behavior rather than accept responsibility. The author likes to bite off hard technical challenges then complain he can't find someone talented enough to chew it. How is it that he even knows what he can accomplish before he's found his co-founder?
nickfromseattle 15y ago
Something similar had happened to me. I met a guy on the east coast, skyped him, and ended up flying out there later in the week. Meeting went great, he was excited and ready to roll. I left, communication was good as first, we incorporated and had a conference call from my lawyers office. It got worse quick, he wouldn't answer phone calls text or emails for sometimes days at a time. Tons of excuses. Said he would work on stuff that never got done. I don't think he actually produced any code in the 2-3 months he spent stringing me along. It was one of the most frustrating times of my life. It felt like someone was holding my actual baby hostage and because he lived so far away, I couldn't go bang on his door until he answered.
brindle 15y ago
There are a million way to fail with a business venture. But this has to be one of the silliest ways I have ever read.
lkrubner 15y ago
The software on Hacker News is telling me that my comment is too long, so I will have to break it into 2 comments. Here is part #1: I do not know Josh Weinstein and for all I know he is a really great guy, and very trustworthy. None of my remarks here should be regarded as aimed at Josh. However, I am a computer programmer who has worked with a lot of inexperienced entrepreneurs. In the style of the movie Rashamon, I feel like I could write something like Josh's post, where the same events happen yet they have a completely different meaning when told from a different point of view. Certainly, I've had conversations that sort of resemble what Josh describes, and I could pick out the various bits that I, too, would mark as "Red Flags", but for me the red flags concerned the entrepreneur that I was working with. Again, these comments are not about Josh. But I feel like I've often played a role similar to that played by the developer he describes. And I've backed out of projects at the last minute, just like this developer did. I will here try describe what some of these discussions have felt like on my end. Week #1: Entrepreneur: I'm really excited to have you as part of this project! Me: I'm really excited to be a part of this project! Entrepreneur: Tracking which ads get clicks in videos is going to be huge! Me: I think it will change things in a disruptive way and it will be exciting for independent content producers. Entrepreneur: Exactly, we are going to empower them with information so they know exactly what they can charge! Me: You understand that this project is too large for me to tackle alone? Entrepreneur: Of course! That's why I'm putting together a team with diverse talents. Me: Great! Who else do you have on board? Entrepreneur: I've been talking to a guy in Britain who is really excited about this. Also a guy in Romania. And I've got a friend, Tom, from my home town who is really into this. Me: Well, if they are all good, then, yes, a team of 4 programmers would be perfect to get this started. Entrepreneur: Of course. I mean, just to ramp up. We'll hire more later. Me: And all of these people are willing to work just for equity? None of these people need money? Entrepreneur: Everyone is excited to be part of this! Me: Hmm, okay. Well, I'll be free in 2 weeks and I look forward to ramping up the operation then. How about we do a big Skype call with the whole team at that time? Entrepreneur: Sounds good! 2 weeks later: Me: Okay, I'm free now. Are we ready to do the big Skype call? Entrepreneur: Sure! Tom has worked out the whole marketing plan! He's going to describe it to us! Me: Marketing plan? Tom is in charge of marketing? Entrepreneur: Of course! That's what he studied in school! Me: Oh, my bad. For some reason I thought he was a computer programmer. Entrepreneur: No, no, he's our CMO. He and I have been working night and day to work out the details. Me: Okay, I guess it would be good to hear how we might pitch this once its built. Are the other 2 programmers ready to Skype? Entrepreneur: Oh, yeah, about them, the guy in England got a job at Goldman Sachs, and the guy in Romania won't be free for another month. Me: What??? Damn, that is a setback. Entrepreneur: No, no, it's good! Me: What do you mean good? Entrepreneur: It gives us more time to get the other details right!!! Me: But what else matters if we don't have any code? Entrepreneur: That's where you come in! You can write the code! Me: But I already told you this project is way too big for one programmer to handle!!! Entrepreneur: Don't worry, I've got another guy, Bill, who is still in school but has promised he can give us 20 hours a week. Me: 20 hours a week on top of full time school? Is that realistic? Entrepreneur: This guy is amazing! He wrote his first complete software app back when he was just 4 years old! He knew Basic before he knew English! Me: Uh, okay. Well, look, if he can pull it off, then that is great. Is Tom ready with the marketing pitch? Entrepreneur: Tom, are you ready? Tom: Sure! Well, for starters, after a lot of discussion, we came up with a name: VisionClaus! Because we offer people a vision, and we are giving away our vision like we are Santa Claus. Me: Uh, um, how did you come up with that name? Tom: Well, at first we were thinking of having the word "video" in our name, but then we decided that was too limiting. Entrepreneur: Yeah, way too limiting. Tom: So then we asked ourselves, what are we really about? And we realized we are about vision. Entrepreneur: Yeah, exactly, all about vision. Tom: And vision has a double meaning, of course, because you have to have vision, as in sight, to see video, but we also offer vision of a higher kind. Entrepreneur: Yeah, much higher. We've very high. Tom: We offer a vision of the future. Entrepreneur: Exactly. We don't give a damn about the present. We're all about the future. Tom: But also, we have certain core values that we hold to be important. Entrepreneur: This is the part that means the most to me. Tom: Above all, we are generous. We want to help people. Entrepreneur: I find this so moving, at an emotional level, to think about how many people we are going to help. I almost want to cry. Tom: And who else is generous? Well, Santa Claus is generous. Entrepreneur: Based on a Christian saint. Tom: So we realized VisionClaus was the best name for us. Entrepreneur: And, surprisingly, the domain was still available. Me: Um, uh, um, okaaaaaaaay. Well, look, that's a cool name and all, but in the short term, the most important thing we can do is write some code. So I think we need to focus on that for awhile. Entrepreneur: Don't worry! You'll have a lot of help soon! Just start writing code now! Me: Okay, give me a few weeks and I'll try to come up with prototype. 4 weeks later: Me: Well, it's taken a lot of hacking but I think I got us a video player that handles diverse media types and tracks clicks. Entrepreneur: Is that all it can do? Me: Well, I've been working part-time. Where is that other programmer? Entrepreneur: He is busy with school. But don't worry! I've got another guy in India who really wants to help us! But I think we need to make this software more exciting! Me: What do you have in mind? Entrepreneur: Can you track eyeballs? Tom: Yes, we need eyeball information. Me: What do you mean? Entrepreneur: Like, where are people looking on screen? What interests them? Me: Uh, well, with specialized equipment, in a lab, we could track eyeballs and generate a heat map. Entrepreneur: No, I mean, when folks are at home and they watch our videos. Me: What are you talking about? Obviously we can't track what people look at when they are at home, their home computers don't track eyeball movements. Entrepreneur: Oh, well, that is disappointing. There is no equipment that can do this? Me: Yes, there is equipment that can track eyeballs, but no, most folks don't have it at home. Or do you mean you want to mail them the equipment? Where would we get the money for that? Entrepreneur: Then it's possible? Really? Don't worry about the money! We can raise the money! Me: Wait a minute, if you can raise that kind of money then maybe you can start paying me something! Entrepreneur: Oh, well, we can't raise that much. Anyway, we gave you significant, very significant equity in this company! Me: You gave me 2%, which I appreciate, but it was with the understanding that you'd start paying me once you had some money. Entrepreneur: And we will! Just hang in their a little longer! Keep writing code! Tom and I are almost done with our investor pitch! Me: Tom is helping with the investor pitch? Entrepreneur: Of course! He's our CIOO! Me: What the hell is a CIOO? Entrepreneur: Chief Investor Outreach Officer! Me: Uh, okay. Entrepreneur: Let's meet in 2 weeks and we'll show you our pitch! Me: Okay.

120 points by joshwprinceton 15y ago

That sucks, I have known people like "Ted" and have learned that any bit of flakiness early on (when you should be trying to impress each other) is a bad sign. 1.5 months is not a long time, though, keep at it!

trevelyan 15y ago
"While waiting for Ted, there wasn’t much real work that I could do and my morale declined… my mind started to wander" If the founder wasn't working on the product, why should anyone want to work with him?
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  There wasn't much real work I could do on the product in the state that we were in, because we were thinking about completely re-architecting it when he came on. Also, I agree with what you are alluding to -- if you aren't touching the product, then you probably aren't that much value-add. Personally, though I've demonstrated the ability to be value-add and was working on some key deals...we just never had the product to close them.
joshwprinceton 15y ago
Thanks for the support Jake!

Bartlet 15y ago

Why don't you just learn to code?

sp332 15y ago
Solid bi-directional video streaming isn't the kind of thing you can just "pick up" by reading a book or taking a class.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Yup, that's the problem.
  - hugacow 15y ago
    The problem to me is that the technical parts of a tech startup are usually more than 50% of the company. Maybe it is even 90%. You write the blog post and pose as if you had something. What did you have really? If getting this guy was critical to success and the reason you moved, I think you should focus more on how in the heck you got into the position to consider moving in the first place, i.e. a combination of bad advice from investors that weren't good advisors and you taking that advice. The critical mistake happened when you decided to move out there, not because of the red flags you mentioned. Those were secondary imo.
    - sp332 15y ago
      Actually finding investors and advisors and getting them on board with the project is a big deal. And apparently finding a good CTO takes a lot of time and effort as well.
      - joshwprinceton 15y ago
        Major lesson learned -- getting investors and advisors doesn't get you a good CTO
      - hugacow 15y ago
        One word: vaporware.
    - joshwprinceton 15y ago
      All valid comments -- I think that ultimately team is the most important, followed by product, which is why I moved, and we were basically doing a reset. We had stuff without him, but I wanted to build the company around him/me rather than the team we had...but agreed in part, for sure
- 15y ago
joshwprinceton 15y ago
I can code in rails...what we are doing is a bit on the complicated side, though, as per the other comment

nateberkopec 15y ago

This is what happens when you're a non-technical founder - you become desperately dependent on others, and when they fall through, you can't do any meaningful work (Josh describes what sounds like just reading some blogs and 'thinking' while Ted leaves him on the hook). Sometimes it works, of course, when the CTO you depend on actually is an awesome coder/architect, but you've essentially just increased your startups possibilities for failure with the same amount of upside as if you were just a technical founder in the first place. I've noticed this dependency of non-technical founders on a "ninja rockstar CTO" is much more acceptable in the NYC startup community than the Valley.

joshwprinceton 15y ago
100% agree Nate - not a good position to be in.
- durga 15y ago
  and so maybe a good alternate strategy is to prove your business/sales/accounting worth to a technical founder/team that's working on a startup and join them.
rebel19 15y ago
Ideas are a dime a dozen, and there are some investors who will be duped by non-technical types and throw money at it but the solid businesses are founded by people who can actually execute the idea........sounds like this startup might be headed for the dead pool.

tptacek 15y ago

Not sure what signed employment contracts have to do with someone flaking on starting a job. Guy doesn't want to work for you, he's not going to work for you. No contract in the world changes that. Companies that give out 5-figure signing bonuses still lose people to better offers. That's life in the big leagues. You don't make yourself look better by slagging people for doing something that everybody does. If you want to pick this apart, I'd be interested in knowing the whole story. What was the comp package you offered him?

joshwprinceton 15y ago
Significant, significant equity, co-founder CTO for venture-backed company.
- tptacek 15y ago
  I know you can't reasonably say what % you offered (you're still apparently a going concern), but know that people on HN are pretty accustomed to b-school types and their notions of what "significant equity" are. Again though, the top line here is, we're in the middle of a tech bubble, there are a lot of venture-backed companies, most of them are going to fail, tech comp packages have never ever been higher, competition is fierce, aggressive, and protracted. There has never been a worse time to assume you've got talent locked up. I'm sympathetic to the idea that someone who isn't 100% sold shouldn't represent themselves as 100% sold. BUT. Oftentimes, we don't demand of others the frank answers we don't want to hear. How many serious sit-down conversations did you have with your potential partner about his commitment level? Your post is "Red flag!" "Red Flag!" "Warning sign!". Well, did you react to any of those flags? If you didn't: I appreciate the idea of writing a post about the warning signs you've learned people should be looking for. However, if you ignored warning signs that the guy wasn't committed, it becomes harder to sympathize with the idea of a blog post designed to slag one guy for not signing on with your company. If you did react to the warning signs and diligently qualified and re-qualified this guy and he kept coming back saying "absolutely I am one hundred fifty percent behind you": I agree you got shafted a bit, but again remind you that tech people mostly don't give a shit. A guy who can execute on the level you're saying you needed can simply write his own ticket. The game theory suggests that you have little to gain by lashing out. ((I'm having a really procrastinate-y morning, which comes from knowing I'm working super late tonight, so sorry I'm being so noisy. At least you're not on the logo design thread I'm howling at.*)

pmdan 15y ago

Who on earth is voting this up?

Bartlet 15y ago

I wouldn't focus so exclusively on someone who specializes in bi-directional video. Given the somewhat desperate nature of your situation, that seems too narrow. Just try to find a kick-ass hacker and assume that he can quickly learn the finer points of your niche.

joshwprinceton 15y ago
I think that applies in most cases, and it may in this, but as per some of the other comments, significant video streaming experience (if not bi-directional) is sort of a prerequisite for being able to do what we are doing.

MatthewB 15y ago

This type of stuff happens all the time. It is the result of completely depending on a technical cofounder. Never, ever do that. This happened to me with one of my products. I am a hacker but the level of expertise the product needed was beyond what I had to offer. After a certain point in the development process, I was completely dependent on my partner. He never delivered anything on time and finally just stopped working on it when a paying client came around (although I offered to pay him many times). Now, when I pursue something new, I make sure I can build it myself even if I do find someone I want to work with.

joshwprinceton 15y ago
Totally with you Matthew. That was one of my main concerns going into the project -- that we were getting in a little over our head with the tech. We were building on top of another API which was supposed to be relatively plug and play, but turns out we spent almost all of our time (about 6 months) working with them to fix it...that's when I realized that we needed a superstar...lesson learned == exactly what you said, though, thanks for the comment!
- MatthewB 15y ago
  Josh - the part that resonated with me the most is your developer keeping you waiting and pushing back deadlines with poor excuses. Like you said, these are big red flags. You mentioned getting sidetracked by learning rails instead of meeting more people, but I disagree with you on that. You should have kept at it learning rails! Developers want to work with other developers, so just by showing you have the drive to learn coding AND have the business skills needed for a startup proves a lot about your personality to potential tech cofounders. Edit: you should have stayed in the valley. You'd be surprised how quickly you would be right back in the saddle of pushing your startup. I moved here 3 months ago and it was the best decision of my life, I just wish I made the decision sooner. Come on back when you're ready.
  - joshwprinceton 15y ago
    True true, I wouldn't say sidetracked, my rails is decent enough, I was just in a very confused state. I think you make a perfectly valid point about Palo Alto - Davis/my support network is here for the current venture, but I wouldn't be opposed to heading back out there. Congrats on heading out there and making the jump :)

atarian 15y ago

>I let Ted’s former CEOs [the one who hesitated on ‘dishonesty’ word association] know what happened I don't think this was a good idea. As you mentioned the warnings and red flags were all there but you didn't heed them. It's pretty clear that your awe of this guy was clouding your sense of judgement: "... disappointed because of how much of an impact Ted would have had in taking us to the next level."

joshwprinceton 15y ago
I assumed it was just sort of an awkward parting of ways. I think you are spot on though in your assessment

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

overgryphon 15y ago

Honestly, it seems rather childish to have published something designed to bash another, with little more than a nod in the direction of your own responsibility for the situation. Perhaps in the future you should consider projects that you can work on yourself without being too dependent on others.

joshwprinceton 15y ago
a) I wasn't bashing someone else, I didn't even put the person's name or any real indicator as to who it is, nor did I send it to them b) I completely agree
dannyr 15y ago
"Perhaps in the future you should consider projects that you can work on yourself without being too dependent on others." How can you build a real company without being too dependent on others?

Thrymr 15y ago

I have to admit that I don't understand this whole "find a technical co-founder" thing. This isn't like just hiring an employee, you have to be full partners and both "all in" on the project. If you don't already have a relationship before you start, you need to build one before you take the leap. And I particularly don't get how "non-technical" co-founders think they can run the show, when they don't have the expertise to do it themselves.

dustineichler 15y ago

How do you get funding without a product? I see this all the time with MBA students fresh out of school. It's pretty annoying. Also, If this doesn't have the makings of someone who saw "The Social Network" and moved to Palo Alto I don't know what does. You ran at the first sign of Failure with a capital F. That doesn't bode well. Josh, shit is going to happen. Learn to roll with the punches. PA is a startup haven because it's boring, there's nothing to do there but focus on building things. That's to bad things went down the way they did, that's unfortunate. Startups are a dedication game, in my mind at least. You should read this as encouragement next time you encounter difficultly.

joshwprinceton 15y ago
We had multiple products and were pivoting to a new product. I don't have an MBA and got initial seed money because of a product I coded myself, and then additional funds based on the success we had with that initial seed funding.

dr_ 15y ago

The title of the article suggests that it was a mistake to leave NYC for Palo Alto, but there is nothing in the article which suggests Palo Alto was the problem. You may as well have titled this article "I got screwed by a guy named Ted". It would probably still have been easier to move forward and develop your app in the Valley. I've been to General Assembly and it's a nice venue and I hope it continues to grown. But you can't suggest that the interactions and people you will meet there will compare to they types of advisors, investors, developers and potential CTO's you would have met in the Valley, or even just in Palo Alto.

jsherry 15y ago
If he titled the article "I got screwed by a guy named Ted", it might have been suggestive of something different.
joshwprinceton 15y ago
Very good point dr_ -- it really wasn't Palo Alto, per se, it was entirely about the technical/personnel issues -- I like your title suggestion :D :D
tedjdziuba 15y ago
For the record, I had nothing to do with this.
chugger 15y ago
does Ted know we're talking about him?
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  I don't think so

blhack 15y ago

Could somebody please explain this recent trend of "make your blog posts as skinny as possible"? Does this have something to do with iPhones? Is this the web-design equivalent of bumping the font size on a paper to make it look longer than it actually is? Is there a reason people do this? It's incredibly annoying.

saalweachter 15y ago
Some usability studies have claimed that narrow columns are easier to read. Personally I kind of like it, although it makes me feel sad for my wide-screen monitors.
- joshwprinceton 15y ago
  Saal is right -- narrow columns are easier to read because you don't have to move your eyes as much. Really wide columns make you move your head. It's a bit weird, but apparently it's what the cool kids are doing...so I did it too lol
jcc80 15y ago
I read a statistic that 68 characters across is optimal. Don't recall where but I just go with it.

zach 15y ago

- Startup founders almost by definition have unreasonable ambition -- a level of interest that exceeds their actual capacity. - The best people to work with on a project are very dedicated to their commitments and are placed in positions where their dedication is a priority. - People unfailingly place a higher priority on commitments that are existing, concrete, regular, place-oriented and are reinforced by the most social pressure from people they know well and interact with the most. (1) So this is just what happens, I think. I've totally seen this before, both been the person that had to say "no" (many, many times), "I guess I can try helping you out for an hour a day" (never enough) and "I guess I can help" (when a friend's technical co-founder was swamped for months at their day job - again, it's hard to replace a full-time commitment). I really think that this was a good person to get with, they honestly wanted to do this, and they thought they could swing it if they made the commitment. But again, that's their ambition talking. Their dedication was stuck at their existing job. I can't imagine the stress this caused both of you and I hope you both move on wiser and more motivated from this. 1. This is why seemingly every company wants people to work on-site.

zach 15y ago
Yikes, this was the original version of my post above (I love to re-edit) and now it's too late to delete it. HN was having some problems when I was posting it, which must be why it's not on my threads page. If an editor can delete it, that'd be appreciated. But so that this comment isn't content-free, let me tell you where I first saw a project in the "cycle of despair" I mentioned in a reply above. It's Daikatana. I worked on the legendarily-late PC game in late 1999 as a contract programmer. It was basically this kind of syndrome, trickling down through the development team. John Romero was and has always been extremely ambitious and enthusiastic. He promised way more than the team he could round up was able to deliver. And that's understandable simply because he had a standard of technological feasibility that was based on John Carmack. That'll skew anybody's perspective. Okay, it was also ludicrous to base the game in four entirely distinct environments. But I think the basic problem was this cycle of overambition leading to overpromising leading to overcommitment leading to overstressed developers.

zach 15y ago

I see three contributing factors here. - Startup founders almost by definition have unreasonable ambition – a level of interest, motivation and excitement that exceeds their actual capacity. - The best people to work with on a project are very dedicated to their commitments and are placed in positions where their dedication is a priority. - People naturally place a higher priority on commitments that are existing, concrete, regular, place-oriented and are reinforced by the most social pressure from people they know well and interact with most frequently. (1) So, you get this. I've totally seen this before, not only having to be the one to say "no" (many, many times) and "I guess I can try working on it for an hour a day" (never enough) but even "wow, sorry, let me try to help" (when a friend's technical co-founder was swamped for months at their day job - again, it's hard to replace an expert or a full-time commitment). I really think that this was a good person to get with, they honestly wanted to do this, and they thought they could swing it if they made the commitment. But again, that's their ambition talking. Their dedication was stuck at their existing job. I can't imagine the stress this caused both of you and I hope you both move on wiser and more motivated from this. 1. This is why every company wants people on-site, of course.

joshwprinceton 15y ago
Thanks for your insight zach -- completely agree with your assessments on entrepreneurs and the importance of being together on-site
- zach 15y ago
  Thanks for bringing this topic up. This is a real and serious issue that isn't talked about much. But I should mention one more thing in greater detail, because it's crazy important. If there's one warning I would give to every potential technical co-founder and those who work with them, it's this. It's the very same motivation that drives the dedication of many developers — not to disappoint people depending on them — that often leads to a cycle of despair. Since developers are enthusiastic and don't want to disappoint people they've already made commitments to, they often choose to accept an easier form of cognitive dissonance over another. That is, they prefer to believe that they will make crazy things happen instead of accepting that they made a commitment they can't deliver on (even for perfectly understandable reasons). So they offer an overly-optimistic outlook or overcommit themselves as a result. They're not being knowingly dishonest as much as believing in something unrealistic. This pathology often starts with procrastination in school and can manifest itself like an addiction: it builds and builds until the individual either hits bottom (the stress is finally too much) or there's an intervention (they are confronted with a reality check or given an out). Be extremely careful about this because it is the epidemic of software (where estimation is difficult enough if you're completely rational, possibilities are great and heroic feats are legendary). Always be on guard and try to prevent this cycle from happening, because if it takes over an organization, things will begin turning in a Yeatsian gyre.

davidandgoliath 15y ago

Curious: Why move back? You sounded as though you were enjoying the West far more -- getting outdoors more, meeting lots of people, etc. As much as you were like a fish out of water it sounded like a period of solid growth for you. I'd have stuck it out further :)

joshwprinceton 15y ago
Yeah I think it would have been nice to stay out there, but my last team member was in NYC, as well as a nice support network (investors, free rent [living at home], friends). I might go back out there at some point :)
- davidandgoliath 15y ago
  Challenge breeds reward. I often wonder whether I'd have a company with ~2,000 clients if I had stayed at home. The most likely answer is no. Eating ramen amongst cardboard box furniture pushed me like nothing else could.

aespinoza 15y ago

I love the article. Thanks for sharing. I have been there before and it sucks. I think the biggest take-away for me was this line: "early on, it’s about commitment, honesty, and trust." And that is why I decided to embark on an startup adventure with my best friends.

Hisoka 15y ago

I echo the sentiments of those that say you shouldn't have gone to a space that was way above your technical competence if you don't have an existing relationship with a tech person. I know that limits your options but there are still ideas that are more appropriate for someone like you. Ideas like Groupon which rely more on commerce know-how rather than technical competence. Or a site like BusinessInsider, which can easily be done using Wordpress or open source solutions

joshwprinceton 15y ago
We had a few tech people and were building on a platform we thought was stable...it wasn't and that's what motivated me to try and find an A+ player. That's definitely a lesson learned for the future though, so agreed

trustfundbaby 15y ago

You know what I like about this guy ... his attitude when things go wrong. No wallowing in self pity, just quick and firm decisions about what to do next ... very awesome read and a great lesson to learn.

joshwprinceton 15y ago
Thanks man. To be honest, I wallowed in self pity in private for a few days ;). One of my advisors gave me some good advice right after it happened which made me get back to business "get over it." Surprisingly effective :D
dannyr 15y ago
I agree with him not wallowing in self pity but it seems that his decision to move back to NY was hasty. I'm not saying he should have stayed in PA but should have at least spent more time exploring his options here in the Valley. I know so many developers here that are looking for good product/business people to partner with. There are a lot of product/business people here but most of them have just an idea and looking for somebody to execute them without much to offer anything in return.. I felt that Josh is one of the exceptions and would have found a good technical co-founder here.
- zem 15y ago
  well, at least from the post he sounded like he didn't really want to leave nyc in the first place, and the only reason he moved to palo alto was because ted was there.

YuriNiyazov 15y ago

stuy hs holler

joshwprinceton 15y ago
yupyup!
- cdk 15y ago
  Another Stuy alum here and was a stuycom fan. Hang in there.
- shurane 15y ago
  Hey, maybe you can find a technical co-founder from Stuy. You could probably get in touch with Zamansky and see how that works. Lot of good talent there, as you should know.
  - joshwprinceton 15y ago
    Good call, Z is the man

inXS68 15y ago

another princeton guy who wants to be successful. stay at goldman sachs

commanda 15y ago

Why would you move back to NYC from the bay area? Having just made the move from SF to NYC myself (for personal reasons, although it's been working out professionally so far as well), I feel like the bay is really the place to be for the non-technical cofounder looking for their bad-ass CTO. NYC is absolutely flooded with non-technical cofounders like the OP - it's really a buyer's market in that sense. For me, as a technical cofounder, I'm definitely in the minority here and I can feel the desperation in the voices of all these non-technical people with their "great ideas, just need a CTO". I want to tell them all to move to the bay because there aren't enough of me to go around in NYC.

ap22213 15y ago

When did it become cool to post one's own blog article? Seems like a slippery slope to spam hell.

kgermino 15y ago
Feb. 19, 2007 Original content is a big part of what makes this site so great, having someone submit their story then be available to comment on the ensuing discussion dramatically raises the bar for quality of conversation. Yes sometimes this crosses the line into spam, but if you feel that an article is all spam then flag it, don't up vote it, and the community will decide.

pramanat 15y ago

Josh, you might want to look at the Tokbox API to get the MVP out: http://www.tokbox.com/opentok/api http://www.tokbox.com/opentok/api

johngalt 15y ago

To the author; If you're having trouble finding specifically "bi-directional video" guys you may want to expand your search to VoIP devs. Many of the challenges are the same, and the protocols. It is also likely that they will have more experience. A lot of large telcos have dropped big money on VoIP over the last decade. So there's a larger pool of talent available to draw from. Also, consider the tone of your post, and your attitude in general. Devs have "Red Flags" we look for as well. You give off several. Consider that many people on this board have the skills your looking for, and/or know someone who does. Pay attention to what you are telling us.

nickfromseattle 15y ago
What are the author's red flags?
- johngalt 15y ago
  "don’t let go of key team members for replacements until the replacement starts" Not an inspiring message to future key team members. "We begun parting ways with our developers, started to wind down most of our NYC operations" So the next smart dev is in Bangalore, guess that means he'll shut it all down again right? "The highs and lows continued. I realized we shouldn’t support a full production operation until our product was completely done, tested, etc." Better to think about what you absolutely require compared to the resources you have to 'fully complete' them. "That Friday, I let Ted know that we need to trim down the team further..." Then Ted quit the following day with a nice email detailing how things had changed in the last 36 hours and the ways he'd like to help him recruit a few engineers read between the lines. "the single most unprofessional thing I have ever heard of" Sending a nice resignation letter is the worst they have ever heard of? Frankly 90% of this post is detailing poor business and hiring decisions. Then blaming Ted for poor behavior rather than accept responsibility. The author likes to bite off hard technical challenges then complain he can't find someone talented enough to chew it. How is it that he even knows what he can accomplish before he's found his co-founder?

nickfromseattle 15y ago

Something similar had happened to me. I met a guy on the east coast, skyped him, and ended up flying out there later in the week. Meeting went great, he was excited and ready to roll. I left, communication was good as first, we incorporated and had a conference call from my lawyers office. It got worse quick, he wouldn't answer phone calls text or emails for sometimes days at a time. Tons of excuses. Said he would work on stuff that never got done. I don't think he actually produced any code in the 2-3 months he spent stringing me along. It was one of the most frustrating times of my life. It felt like someone was holding my actual baby hostage and because he lived so far away, I couldn't go bang on his door until he answered.

brindle 15y ago

There are a million way to fail with a business venture. But this has to be one of the silliest ways I have ever read.

lkrubner 15y ago

The software on Hacker News is telling me that my comment is too long, so I will have to break it into 2 comments. Here is part #1: I do not know Josh Weinstein and for all I know he is a really great guy, and very trustworthy. None of my remarks here should be regarded as aimed at Josh. However, I am a computer programmer who has worked with a lot of inexperienced entrepreneurs. In the style of the movie Rashamon, I feel like I could write something like Josh's post, where the same events happen yet they have a completely different meaning when told from a different point of view. Certainly, I've had conversations that sort of resemble what Josh describes, and I could pick out the various bits that I, too, would mark as "Red Flags", but for me the red flags concerned the entrepreneur that I was working with. Again, these comments are not about Josh. But I feel like I've often played a role similar to that played by the developer he describes. And I've backed out of projects at the last minute, just like this developer did. I will here try describe what some of these discussions have felt like on my end. Week #1: Entrepreneur: I'm really excited to have you as part of this project! Me: I'm really excited to be a part of this project! Entrepreneur: Tracking which ads get clicks in videos is going to be huge! Me: I think it will change things in a disruptive way and it will be exciting for independent content producers. Entrepreneur: Exactly, we are going to empower them with information so they know exactly what they can charge! Me: You understand that this project is too large for me to tackle alone? Entrepreneur: Of course! That's why I'm putting together a team with diverse talents. Me: Great! Who else do you have on board? Entrepreneur: I've been talking to a guy in Britain who is really excited about this. Also a guy in Romania. And I've got a friend, Tom, from my home town who is really into this. Me: Well, if they are all good, then, yes, a team of 4 programmers would be perfect to get this started. Entrepreneur: Of course. I mean, just to ramp up. We'll hire more later. Me: And all of these people are willing to work just for equity? None of these people need money? Entrepreneur: Everyone is excited to be part of this! Me: Hmm, okay. Well, I'll be free in 2 weeks and I look forward to ramping up the operation then. How about we do a big Skype call with the whole team at that time? Entrepreneur: Sounds good! 2 weeks later: Me: Okay, I'm free now. Are we ready to do the big Skype call? Entrepreneur: Sure! Tom has worked out the whole marketing plan! He's going to describe it to us! Me: Marketing plan? Tom is in charge of marketing? Entrepreneur: Of course! That's what he studied in school! Me: Oh, my bad. For some reason I thought he was a computer programmer. Entrepreneur: No, no, he's our CMO. He and I have been working night and day to work out the details. Me: Okay, I guess it would be good to hear how we might pitch this once its built. Are the other 2 programmers ready to Skype? Entrepreneur: Oh, yeah, about them, the guy in England got a job at Goldman Sachs, and the guy in Romania won't be free for another month. Me: What??? Damn, that is a setback. Entrepreneur: No, no, it's good! Me: What do you mean good? Entrepreneur: It gives us more time to get the other details right!!! Me: But what else matters if we don't have any code? Entrepreneur: That's where you come in! You can write the code! Me: But I already told you this project is way too big for one programmer to handle!!! Entrepreneur: Don't worry, I've got another guy, Bill, who is still in school but has promised he can give us 20 hours a week. Me: 20 hours a week on top of full time school? Is that realistic? Entrepreneur: This guy is amazing! He wrote his first complete software app back when he was just 4 years old! He knew Basic before he knew English! Me: Uh, okay. Well, look, if he can pull it off, then that is great. Is Tom ready with the marketing pitch? Entrepreneur: Tom, are you ready? Tom: Sure! Well, for starters, after a lot of discussion, we came up with a name: VisionClaus! Because we offer people a vision, and we are giving away our vision like we are Santa Claus. Me: Uh, um, how did you come up with that name? Tom: Well, at first we were thinking of having the word "video" in our name, but then we decided that was too limiting. Entrepreneur: Yeah, way too limiting. Tom: So then we asked ourselves, what are we really about? And we realized we are about vision. Entrepreneur: Yeah, exactly, all about vision. Tom: And vision has a double meaning, of course, because you have to have vision, as in sight, to see video, but we also offer vision of a higher kind. Entrepreneur: Yeah, much higher. We've very high. Tom: We offer a vision of the future. Entrepreneur: Exactly. We don't give a damn about the present. We're all about the future. Tom: But also, we have certain core values that we hold to be important. Entrepreneur: This is the part that means the most to me. Tom: Above all, we are generous. We want to help people. Entrepreneur: I find this so moving, at an emotional level, to think about how many people we are going to help. I almost want to cry. Tom: And who else is generous? Well, Santa Claus is generous. Entrepreneur: Based on a Christian saint. Tom: So we realized VisionClaus was the best name for us. Entrepreneur: And, surprisingly, the domain was still available. Me: Um, uh, um, okaaaaaaaay. Well, look, that's a cool name and all, but in the short term, the most important thing we can do is write some code. So I think we need to focus on that for awhile. Entrepreneur: Don't worry! You'll have a lot of help soon! Just start writing code now! Me: Okay, give me a few weeks and I'll try to come up with prototype. 4 weeks later: Me: Well, it's taken a lot of hacking but I think I got us a video player that handles diverse media types and tracks clicks. Entrepreneur: Is that all it can do? Me: Well, I've been working part-time. Where is that other programmer? Entrepreneur: He is busy with school. But don't worry! I've got another guy in India who really wants to help us! But I think we need to make this software more exciting! Me: What do you have in mind? Entrepreneur: Can you track eyeballs? Tom: Yes, we need eyeball information. Me: What do you mean? Entrepreneur: Like, where are people looking on screen? What interests them? Me: Uh, well, with specialized equipment, in a lab, we could track eyeballs and generate a heat map. Entrepreneur: No, I mean, when folks are at home and they watch our videos. Me: What are you talking about? Obviously we can't track what people look at when they are at home, their home computers don't track eyeball movements. Entrepreneur: Oh, well, that is disappointing. There is no equipment that can do this? Me: Yes, there is equipment that can track eyeballs, but no, most folks don't have it at home. Or do you mean you want to mail them the equipment? Where would we get the money for that? Entrepreneur: Then it's possible? Really? Don't worry about the money! We can raise the money! Me: Wait a minute, if you can raise that kind of money then maybe you can start paying me something! Entrepreneur: Oh, well, we can't raise that much. Anyway, we gave you significant, very significant equity in this company! Me: You gave me 2%, which I appreciate, but it was with the understanding that you'd start paying me once you had some money. Entrepreneur: And we will! Just hang in their a little longer! Keep writing code! Tom and I are almost done with our investor pitch! Me: Tom is helping with the investor pitch? Entrepreneur: Of course! He's our CIOO! Me: What the hell is a CIOO? Entrepreneur: Chief Investor Outreach Officer! Me: Uh, okay. Entrepreneur: Let's meet in 2 weeks and we'll show you our pitch! Me: Okay.