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> A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts I'm a non-dal

> A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts I'm a non-dalit Indian working in silicon valley. I know that caste based discrimination is still prevalent in India and not surprised that it continues in here in silicon valley as well amongst Indian community but I'm surprised to read this part in the article. I have never heard of someone doing a scan for sacred thread. Also, it's worth noting that most non-dalit people also do not wear this sacred thread so whoever is doing this scan isn't familiar with India or probably this part is made up in the article. That said, I know that it's much harder for a dalit person to progress in India as the society still tries to pull them behind. Indian govt has reservations in colleges and jobs for dalit community, which I believe has helped the community a lot in last 50 years or so, helping many to bring their families out of poverty. But, still there's a long way to go. Also, a long way to go for non-dalit community to abolish this discrimination. My heart goes with our dalit brothers & sisters and glad to hear that their issues are being discussed in silicon valley as well now.

thweori234234 5y ago
Actually, Sai Deepak mentions that 15% of those classified as SC/STs also wear the sacred thread. Of course, we know 'Shudras' have run empires in India and have held high status before the age of colonialism. Unsuprising that the Western press and academia has the nuance of a brick, perhaps because their own history is so grotesquely checkered.
- ir123 5y ago
  This is extremely misleading and a copout to suggest that even SC/STs wear the thread. Reality is that 99.99% of them don't. I wouldn't trust Sai Deepak with anything, he's a nut job who for some reason sounds eloquent to the upper class Hindus.
  - pm90 5y ago
    > he's a nut job who for some reason sounds eloquent to the upper class Hindus. This is true for any demagogues btw. It’s why Jordan Peterson appeals so much to upper class White Americans.
  - reachtarunhere 5y ago
    I don't belong to the SC/ST group. I don't wear the thread and none of my friends (no matter which group they come from) do. So I am not sure what is your point? Once again this is some stupid journo not doing research and spreading FUD. If Westerners want to be moralizing the first thing they should start with is being sound about their research. Even actual issues will be dismissed in future by larger population in India if this is the kind of work that is presented as truth.
    - ir123 5y ago
      Not sure what you are trying to say? > Deepak mentions that 15% of those classified as SC/STs also wear the sacred thread My point is that this is incorrect.
  - alarak 5y ago
    For what reason do you say that? edit: asking this question to clarify since the other reply(ies) take this as a given.
  - programmer_dude 5y ago
    >Reality is that 99.99% of them don't. This is incorrect. I can vouch this is a relatively common practice in Maharashtra.
- RichardCA 5y ago
  > Unsuprising that the Western press and academia has the nuance of a brick, perhaps because their own history is so grotesquely checkered. There will always be an element of the intangible in any effort by the Western mind to understand India. The experience is one of irreducible complexity, the subject receding from attempts to form a mental framework that permits nuanced understanding. This documentary is 50 years old. Nothing has changed. https://youtu.be/XFGO8oL0RLk https://youtu.be/XFGO8oL0RLk
pm90 5y ago
I have also never heard of this sort of patting shoulder behavior but I think we have to accept it as a truth if it’s something being reported by many people. Caste and class divisions run very deep in South Asian culture. I’m disappointed that even in tech where workers are generally highly educated this is something that continues to exist (please: I’m not talking about the necessity of a college education to be a good engineer, that’s another conversation. I’m pointing out that most tech jobs require a college education, in many cases Grad School education).
- nindalf 5y ago
  Why the alleged patting behaviour seems unlikely - even if it worked, it would only tell you if the person is a member of the relatively few castes that wear that.
  - thumbsup-_- 5y ago
    The point isn’t that it works or not but that is our society so down that we fall for such tactics? And also, that is it really a thing done by people or is it just made up?
ThinkingAgain 5y ago
Indeed the children introducing themselves in US with their caste is a thing to be highlighted from the article. Really feel bad about what we are teaching our kids. I am in India not in US, but did not expect this even in India today.
- strikelaserclaw 5y ago
  That part feels fake to me, not only due to all other kids being brahmin (which statistically from my experience as an Indian American feels very off), but most Indian Americans don't really care that much about caste, most know it but they don't know enough to be "proud" of it.
mama123 5y ago
Much of what the English speaking elite in India & much of the west consumes as a theory on caste is a handiwork of a colonial-evangelist mission. So much of it has to be taken with a boatload of salt. Since it is politically incorrect to challenge the established views, one simply has to rely on ones own observation. Especially if they are missing the woods for the trees on these debates. It is very much in line with the western debates on race inequality, feminism or gender pronouns. Those claiming to fight these inequalities, intentionally or unintentionally create more fissures and distrust. And unlike the western world where there has been a systemic slavery or persecution of indigenous population, in India there are literally thousands of castes and not always a clear idea of hierarchy. The hierarchy was mostly an academic theory built on flimsy propaganda. Also the very same people who see privilege among sections of the Hindus are completely blind to the privilege of Christians or Muslims, considering that large parts of India have been under Islamic and Christian colonisation for several centuries. And Hindus have faced the same kind of violence from these two groups as much of the rest of the world. In a way caste might have been the social glue that allowed the indigenous people to put up a fight and maintain their Hindu identity. There is a strong correlation between caste and economic mobility & urbanisation. The ones who preserve their caste the most are ones who can gain some privileges in the form of vote banks, social security or class benefits, this easily excludes 90% of the urban educated masses. In a country of 1.4 billion, sure there are large swathes of population still behest with the caste problem, but also in a country where 1/3 of the people are malnourished and have stunted growth, caste is hardly the biggest problem and might actually be a evolved social survival mechanism.
- dash2 5y ago
  That’s all very well but it’s pretty obvious that Dalits get a raw deal in India, and if you don’t think so, then you may just be kidding yourself. Equally, if you think of Muslims as “privileged” under the current BJP government, you need a reality check.
  - mama123 5y ago
    Many Poor muslims just as many poor Indian are now getting electricity, subsidised toilets, zero balance bank accounts, direct benefits transfer for the first time under BJP rule. Many muslim women are for the first time are freed from triple talaq. Their life is certainly far better than the muslims in Pakistan, so much so that many parts of Pakistan are revolting and claiming to want to reunite with India. Whatever your claims of muslim persecution is mostly manufactured. In may ways the more radical elements are testing the limits of the patience of the citizens. I wish India would follow the west and start De-Arabising the muslim population, after all each community has their unique dress and culture.
deleted 5y ago
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strikelaserclaw 5y ago
same thing with the children in that kids class all saying they were Brahmin, even in silicon valley where there are a ton of Brahmins, i doubt they make up the majority of Indians.

thweori234234 5y ago

Actually, Sai Deepak mentions that 15% of those classified as SC/STs also wear the sacred thread. Of course, we know 'Shudras' have run empires in India and have held high status before the age of colonialism. Unsuprising that the Western press and academia has the nuance of a brick, perhaps because their own history is so grotesquely checkered.

ir123 5y ago
This is extremely misleading and a copout to suggest that even SC/STs wear the thread. Reality is that 99.99% of them don't. I wouldn't trust Sai Deepak with anything, he's a nut job who for some reason sounds eloquent to the upper class Hindus.
- pm90 5y ago
  > he's a nut job who for some reason sounds eloquent to the upper class Hindus. This is true for any demagogues btw. It’s why Jordan Peterson appeals so much to upper class White Americans.
- reachtarunhere 5y ago
  I don't belong to the SC/ST group. I don't wear the thread and none of my friends (no matter which group they come from) do. So I am not sure what is your point? Once again this is some stupid journo not doing research and spreading FUD. If Westerners want to be moralizing the first thing they should start with is being sound about their research. Even actual issues will be dismissed in future by larger population in India if this is the kind of work that is presented as truth.
  - ir123 5y ago
    Not sure what you are trying to say? > Deepak mentions that 15% of those classified as SC/STs also wear the sacred thread My point is that this is incorrect.
- alarak 5y ago
  For what reason do you say that? edit: asking this question to clarify since the other reply(ies) take this as a given.
- programmer_dude 5y ago
  >Reality is that 99.99% of them don't. This is incorrect. I can vouch this is a relatively common practice in Maharashtra.
RichardCA 5y ago
> Unsuprising that the Western press and academia has the nuance of a brick, perhaps because their own history is so grotesquely checkered. There will always be an element of the intangible in any effort by the Western mind to understand India. The experience is one of irreducible complexity, the subject receding from attempts to form a mental framework that permits nuanced understanding. This documentary is 50 years old. Nothing has changed. https://youtu.be/XFGO8oL0RLk https://youtu.be/XFGO8oL0RLk

pm90 5y ago

I have also never heard of this sort of patting shoulder behavior but I think we have to accept it as a truth if it’s something being reported by many people. Caste and class divisions run very deep in South Asian culture. I’m disappointed that even in tech where workers are generally highly educated this is something that continues to exist (please: I’m not talking about the necessity of a college education to be a good engineer, that’s another conversation. I’m pointing out that most tech jobs require a college education, in many cases Grad School education).

nindalf 5y ago
Why the alleged patting behaviour seems unlikely - even if it worked, it would only tell you if the person is a member of the relatively few castes that wear that.
- thumbsup-_- 5y ago
  The point isn’t that it works or not but that is our society so down that we fall for such tactics? And also, that is it really a thing done by people or is it just made up?

ThinkingAgain 5y ago

Indeed the children introducing themselves in US with their caste is a thing to be highlighted from the article. Really feel bad about what we are teaching our kids. I am in India not in US, but did not expect this even in India today.

strikelaserclaw 5y ago
That part feels fake to me, not only due to all other kids being brahmin (which statistically from my experience as an Indian American feels very off), but most Indian Americans don't really care that much about caste, most know it but they don't know enough to be "proud" of it.

mama123 5y ago

Much of what the English speaking elite in India & much of the west consumes as a theory on caste is a handiwork of a colonial-evangelist mission. So much of it has to be taken with a boatload of salt. Since it is politically incorrect to challenge the established views, one simply has to rely on ones own observation. Especially if they are missing the woods for the trees on these debates. It is very much in line with the western debates on race inequality, feminism or gender pronouns. Those claiming to fight these inequalities, intentionally or unintentionally create more fissures and distrust. And unlike the western world where there has been a systemic slavery or persecution of indigenous population, in India there are literally thousands of castes and not always a clear idea of hierarchy. The hierarchy was mostly an academic theory built on flimsy propaganda. Also the very same people who see privilege among sections of the Hindus are completely blind to the privilege of Christians or Muslims, considering that large parts of India have been under Islamic and Christian colonisation for several centuries. And Hindus have faced the same kind of violence from these two groups as much of the rest of the world. In a way caste might have been the social glue that allowed the indigenous people to put up a fight and maintain their Hindu identity. There is a strong correlation between caste and economic mobility & urbanisation. The ones who preserve their caste the most are ones who can gain some privileges in the form of vote banks, social security or class benefits, this easily excludes 90% of the urban educated masses. In a country of 1.4 billion, sure there are large swathes of population still behest with the caste problem, but also in a country where 1/3 of the people are malnourished and have stunted growth, caste is hardly the biggest problem and might actually be a evolved social survival mechanism.

dash2 5y ago
That’s all very well but it’s pretty obvious that Dalits get a raw deal in India, and if you don’t think so, then you may just be kidding yourself. Equally, if you think of Muslims as “privileged” under the current BJP government, you need a reality check.
- mama123 5y ago
  Many Poor muslims just as many poor Indian are now getting electricity, subsidised toilets, zero balance bank accounts, direct benefits transfer for the first time under BJP rule. Many muslim women are for the first time are freed from triple talaq. Their life is certainly far better than the muslims in Pakistan, so much so that many parts of Pakistan are revolting and claiming to want to reunite with India. Whatever your claims of muslim persecution is mostly manufactured. In may ways the more radical elements are testing the limits of the patience of the citizens. I wish India would follow the west and start De-Arabising the muslim population, after all each community has their unique dress and culture.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

strikelaserclaw 5y ago

same thing with the children in that kids class all saying they were Brahmin, even in silicon valley where there are a ton of Brahmins, i doubt they make up the majority of Indians.