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Ukraine's (and any country's) agency is beside the point. Russia made clear that it considers further Nato expansion an existential threat. Idealistic fantasies

by a0-prw 5y ago

Ukraine's (and any country's) agency is beside the point. Russia made clear that it considers further Nato expansion an existential threat. Idealistic fantasies about what's right and wrong disappear like smoke when someone (or some country) believes it is fighting for its existence.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Ukraine's (and any country's) agency is beside the point. No, it's not. > Russia made clear that it considers further Nato expansion an existential threat. Well, yes, of course; if you are trying to justify something as flagrantly out of line with international law as what Russia is doing, that's what you are going to use as your propaganda line to the international community. Of course, a very large portion of Putin’s argument in, e.g., his war announcement speech wasn't about this existential threat, but about the historic territorial extent of the Russian Empire and the USSR and the stab in the back to the Russian people delivered by the officials of the latter alienating Russian territory to create Ukraine and then allowing the Soviet Union to fall. So even while sometimes claiming an existential threat, Putin reveals that that isn't his real motivation, but instead his own “idealistic fantasies of what is right and wrong”.
cheaprentalyeti 5y ago
Eight years have passed since the last time Russia invaded Ukraine _and no actual progress towards NATO membership for Ukraine was made_.
asojfdowgh 5y ago
Complaining about NATO threatening russia's existence and agency, but once again completely ignoring that Ukraine is an independent-from-russia country, is the whole issue with commentary on the topic Russia doesn't own Ukraine, Russia isn't Ukraine's dad, Russia saying "don't marry my daughter" to NATO, should be laughed at, Russia has zero right to dictate that another country should not be allowed to seek safety from Russia. Russia is not special.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  No complaining about NATO threatening Russia's agency from me. I'm saying that these fine words about agency and values are BS. I am advocating for a realistic world view, which requires that you actually understand what matters to your opponent. Especially if your opponent can destroy you.

by a0-prw 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Ukraine's (and any country's) agency is beside the point. No, it's not. > Russia made clear that it considers further Nato expansion an existential threat. Well, yes, of course; if you are trying to justify something as flagrantly out of line with international law as what Russia is doing, that's what you are going to use as your propaganda line to the international community. Of course, a very large portion of Putin’s argument in, e.g., his war announcement speech wasn't about this existential threat, but about the historic territorial extent of the Russian Empire and the USSR and the stab in the back to the Russian people delivered by the officials of the latter alienating Russian territory to create Ukraine and then allowing the Soviet Union to fall. So even while sometimes claiming an existential threat, Putin reveals that that isn't his real motivation, but instead his own “idealistic fantasies of what is right and wrong”.

cheaprentalyeti 5y ago

Eight years have passed since the last time Russia invaded Ukraine _and no actual progress towards NATO membership for Ukraine was made_.

asojfdowgh 5y ago

Complaining about NATO threatening russia's existence and agency, but once again completely ignoring that Ukraine is an independent-from-russia country, is the whole issue with commentary on the topic Russia doesn't own Ukraine, Russia isn't Ukraine's dad, Russia saying "don't marry my daughter" to NATO, should be laughed at, Russia has zero right to dictate that another country should not be allowed to seek safety from Russia. Russia is not special.

a0-prw 5y ago
No complaining about NATO threatening Russia's agency from me. I'm saying that these fine words about agency and values are BS. I am advocating for a realistic world view, which requires that you actually understand what matters to your opponent. Especially if your opponent can destroy you.