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I will say: I find these games to be extremely fun to watch (and a lot of others do as well, as they consistently get very high views on Twitch and YouTube), bu

I will say: I find these games to be extremely fun to watch (and a lot of others do as well, as they consistently get very high views on Twitch and YouTube), but maybe not so much if I wasn't already into playing them as well. I think the viewing experience is greatly improved by having a personal experience of the game itself, and the skill that goes into what you're watching. This is perhaps similar to watching a fighting game: it's probably hard to enjoy watching somebody play Street Fighter if you haven't actually put hours into it yourself, and understand the depth and nuance of what you're watching.

Talanes 5y ago
Honestly, I think both Souls games and Street Fighter are very watchable for non-players. Both rely on a very strong link between animation and gameplay, which I find reads more intuitive than something like watching someone play a shooter I'm unfamiliar with.
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  I actually think the hit volume based damage in both makes this rather untrue. Both Souls games and SF have moves where damage happens completely incongruously to the animation. This is partly what makes both ‘hard’ because there is this piece of hidden knowledge that when you first encounter it seems really unfair because you get hit by attacks that look like they missed. It’s somewhat remedied in fighting games because they incorporate practice modes that expose all the hidden state.
  - gretch 5y ago
    It’s not really “completely incongruous” though? Big haymaker swings deal massive damage. Or a jab/stomp from a gargantuan creature. Small/quick attacks from small creatures deal small damage. What’s the problem?
    - meheleventyone 5y ago
      The thing I said, that you get hit by attacks that don’t visually connect.
    - FumblingBear 5y ago
      I would say that to a casual observer, i-frames (invincibility frames) from dodge rolling are not intuitive. Why would an attack clip through them just because they rolled? (or in the case of Elden Ring, mounted or dismounted their horse) It feels very intuitive when you've played games that include mechanics like that, and there are more and more games that implement it nowadays, but if you've never seen a game with i-frames as a core combat mechanic, I'd imagine it can be very jarring.
      - Talanes 5y ago
        >Why would an attack clip through them just because they rolled? See, I actually do find that a very intuitive situation, and not because I have a great grasp of i-frames, but because I'm not really thinking of "Why" questions. I'm just focused on the spectacle in front of me, with no regard for the underlying set of rules that produced it. I might just be atypically disposed to enjoy watching things without needing to understand them.

Talanes 5y ago

Honestly, I think both Souls games and Street Fighter are very watchable for non-players. Both rely on a very strong link between animation and gameplay, which I find reads more intuitive than something like watching someone play a shooter I'm unfamiliar with.

meheleventyone 5y ago
I actually think the hit volume based damage in both makes this rather untrue. Both Souls games and SF have moves where damage happens completely incongruously to the animation. This is partly what makes both ‘hard’ because there is this piece of hidden knowledge that when you first encounter it seems really unfair because you get hit by attacks that look like they missed. It’s somewhat remedied in fighting games because they incorporate practice modes that expose all the hidden state.
- gretch 5y ago
  It’s not really “completely incongruous” though? Big haymaker swings deal massive damage. Or a jab/stomp from a gargantuan creature. Small/quick attacks from small creatures deal small damage. What’s the problem?
  - meheleventyone 5y ago
    The thing I said, that you get hit by attacks that don’t visually connect.
  - FumblingBear 5y ago
    I would say that to a casual observer, i-frames (invincibility frames) from dodge rolling are not intuitive. Why would an attack clip through them just because they rolled? (or in the case of Elden Ring, mounted or dismounted their horse) It feels very intuitive when you've played games that include mechanics like that, and there are more and more games that implement it nowadays, but if you've never seen a game with i-frames as a core combat mechanic, I'd imagine it can be very jarring.
    - Talanes 5y ago
      >Why would an attack clip through them just because they rolled? See, I actually do find that a very intuitive situation, and not because I have a great grasp of i-frames, but because I'm not really thinking of "Why" questions. I'm just focused on the spectacle in front of me, with no regard for the underlying set of rules that produced it. I might just be atypically disposed to enjoy watching things without needing to understand them.