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I see the author recommended Signal - it's worth noting the German armed forces use a self-hosted Matrix installation! [1] [2]: > It is an easy strawman to co

I see the author recommended Signal - it's worth noting the German armed forces use a self-hosted Matrix installation! [1] [2]: > It is an easy strawman to compare Signal to technology from the 90s and completely ignore IRC and Matrix, especially now that Matrix has started growing: Element recently gained Series B funding of about 30 million, how the French government has completely adopted Matrix in the government and all the German armed forces are connected to Matrix. Even though Matrix is not as well-known as Signal, it is already considered the messaging app of choice for top-secret communications. Matrix offers not only protection for you against a government, their scope is big enough for governments to get protection against other governments. [1]: https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Bundeswehr-setzt-kuenftig-auf-Matrix-als-Messenger-4719474.html https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Bundeswehr-setzt-kue... [2]: https://digital-justice.com/articles/skip-signal.html https://digital-justice.com/articles/skip-signal.html

bogota 5y ago
Matrix had a horrible UX last time i tried it out less than a year ago. I see this comment in ever thread that says use signal. I host pretty much everything myself but I am not about trying to teach every person i want to talk with to not only download a new app but then walk them through how it works. Signal is truly some awesome tech and I don’t understand the hate.
- 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
  hate: 1. it is not free software 2. you cannot use your own clients/server 3. you are tied to your mobile number 4. it is not able to communicate with other networks 5. people shilling for signal do not understand that it is currently just whatsapp but not owned by facebook/meta. who knows if that could change just like whatsapp changed. and maybe more but this is the jist of it... i do understand matrix by default has a learning curve but there are dozens of clients that cater to a variety of users. you can pick and choose whatever you like, all you have to do is some experimenting
  - tony101 5y ago
    > “ 1. it is not free software” What are you talking about? https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/blob/master/LICE... https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/master/LICEN...
    - 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
      free as in "open source" not free as in free software. you cant do squat with the software, you cant submit bug fixes or fork and roll out your own. this is for complying with license requirements. oh, also the github repo last i heard was very far behind in commits from their internal live branches. they push to github as an afterthought
      - growse 5y ago
        What stops you forking and running your own server? Plenty of people have done that.
        kitkat_new 5y ago
        can you drop a few links to such Signal servers?
        growse 5y ago
        Not public ones, no.
      - nayuki 5y ago
        You are assuming rights that free / open-source software never promised. The company owns the code copyright, so they can choose to release any part of the code they wish; they can delay as much as they want. You never had the right to submit bug fixes to the original project. Open source is about source code, not about having a responsive community.
- unicornporn 5y ago
  > Matrix had a horrible UX Matrix doesn't have "terrible UX". The client you chose had. Pick another one. You don't have that choice with Signal. Try: https://syphon.org/ https://syphon.org/ https://schildi.chat/ https://schildi.chat/
  - zaarn 5y ago
    The Terrible UX is in part from the protocol, clients can't fix that (just look at the absolute mess that rooms are). And still no support for custom emoji or stickers. Oh, and joining large rooms can still take hours.
    - toomanybeersies 5y ago
      > And still no support for custom emoji or stickers That sounds like a feature to me.
      - zaarn 5y ago
        Well, for my use cases it's required. If you run your own matrix home server feel free to ban it but for me that is an essential feature.
        alexvoda 5y ago
        I can understand that it is a desired and important feature. But please explain how it is essential.
    - unicornporn 5y ago
      > The Terrible UX is in part from the protocol, clients can't fix that (just look at the absolute mess that rooms are). Please explain.
      - zaarn 5y ago
        Rooms don't form a cohesive set of channels that one can join, rather the group together a bunch of channels. If I, for example, setup a #rules channel in a community room, then I cannot ensure that users are reading this channel, which contains vital information about the operation of the community. Same for announcement channels for events. Instead of people joining a server community, they join a bunch of bubbles formed by the people using only subsets of the channels, without being able to direct the overall community. This is poor UX for both the user and the community operators.
- rvz 5y ago
  > but I am not about trying to teach every person i want to talk with to not only download a new app but then walk them through how it works. As soon as they find out that a feature is lacking in Signal, they will just revert to the previous messenger that they were using. > Signal is truly some awesome tech and I don’t understand the hate. At least Element/Matrix is decentralized and is not just deployed on Google's Cloud as a centralized server and also doesn't have a untraceable ponzi cryptocurrency called MobileCoin as a feature that allows dark-net criminals, terrorists and extremists to fund their activities on a private blockchain. Now I can see why Signal is so attractive to dark-net criminals and extremists, but it doesn't matter since the only way to stop them making those private transactions so easily on Signal is for Google to take down Signal's GCP instance.
- egberts1 5y ago
  Matrix? Did you mean to say “Element” as in iOS?
- jjav 5y ago
  > Signal is truly some awesome tech and I don’t understand the hate. Signal has a frustratingly terrible client that I curse every day. But, I can sort of live with that. The big problem with Signal is that it has a proprietary client with no supported alternatives. The other fundamental problem with Signal is that it requires a phone number registration. I did it because I only use Signal to chat with some friends, but if I had to use something for truly private communication there is no way I would ever tie identity to a phone number.
  - sigg3 5y ago
    > if I had to use something for truly private communication there is no way I would ever tie identity to a phone number. This is a confusion of terms. Privacy doesn't entail anonymity. Having a private conversation means exactly what Signal is offering: peer to peer encrypted communication. What you are referring to is a secret conversation. Signal is awesome as a replacement for SMS and any messenger using telephone number as ID.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - kitkat_new 5y ago
      privacy is not only having private conversations, but keeping my phone number private instead of sharing it with everybody
      - bryan_w 5y ago
        It's a bit odd that it's a deal breaker for you to keep your phone number private with signal, as that would be your only option to communicate (via phone) if no messengers existed.
        kitkat_new 5y ago
        ? I don't understand. 1. Messengers exist. 2. Isn't the SMS App not a messenger as well? What about Email? SMS style messaging can be implemented via Matrix as well. I am just confused by this comment. I just want to keep my phone number private
- sofixa 5y ago
  Signal's UX is pretty poor, like WhatsApp's. Both don't even come close to Telegram.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    What sets telegram apart?
omginternets 5y ago
France as well. And it’s actually a pretty solid app.

bogota 5y ago

Matrix had a horrible UX last time i tried it out less than a year ago. I see this comment in ever thread that says use signal. I host pretty much everything myself but I am not about trying to teach every person i want to talk with to not only download a new app but then walk them through how it works. Signal is truly some awesome tech and I don’t understand the hate.

2Gkashmiri 5y ago
hate: 1. it is not free software 2. you cannot use your own clients/server 3. you are tied to your mobile number 4. it is not able to communicate with other networks 5. people shilling for signal do not understand that it is currently just whatsapp but not owned by facebook/meta. who knows if that could change just like whatsapp changed. and maybe more but this is the jist of it... i do understand matrix by default has a learning curve but there are dozens of clients that cater to a variety of users. you can pick and choose whatever you like, all you have to do is some experimenting
- tony101 5y ago
  > “ 1. it is not free software” What are you talking about? https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/blob/master/LICE... https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/master/LICEN...
  - 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
    free as in "open source" not free as in free software. you cant do squat with the software, you cant submit bug fixes or fork and roll out your own. this is for complying with license requirements. oh, also the github repo last i heard was very far behind in commits from their internal live branches. they push to github as an afterthought
    - growse 5y ago
      What stops you forking and running your own server? Plenty of people have done that.
      - kitkat_new 5y ago
        can you drop a few links to such Signal servers?
        growse 5y ago
        Not public ones, no.
    - nayuki 5y ago
      You are assuming rights that free / open-source software never promised. The company owns the code copyright, so they can choose to release any part of the code they wish; they can delay as much as they want. You never had the right to submit bug fixes to the original project. Open source is about source code, not about having a responsive community.
unicornporn 5y ago
> Matrix had a horrible UX Matrix doesn't have "terrible UX". The client you chose had. Pick another one. You don't have that choice with Signal. Try: https://syphon.org/ https://syphon.org/ https://schildi.chat/ https://schildi.chat/
- zaarn 5y ago
  The Terrible UX is in part from the protocol, clients can't fix that (just look at the absolute mess that rooms are). And still no support for custom emoji or stickers. Oh, and joining large rooms can still take hours.
  - toomanybeersies 5y ago
    > And still no support for custom emoji or stickers That sounds like a feature to me.
    - zaarn 5y ago
      Well, for my use cases it's required. If you run your own matrix home server feel free to ban it but for me that is an essential feature.
      - alexvoda 5y ago
        I can understand that it is a desired and important feature. But please explain how it is essential.
  - unicornporn 5y ago
    > The Terrible UX is in part from the protocol, clients can't fix that (just look at the absolute mess that rooms are). Please explain.
    - zaarn 5y ago
      Rooms don't form a cohesive set of channels that one can join, rather the group together a bunch of channels. If I, for example, setup a #rules channel in a community room, then I cannot ensure that users are reading this channel, which contains vital information about the operation of the community. Same for announcement channels for events. Instead of people joining a server community, they join a bunch of bubbles formed by the people using only subsets of the channels, without being able to direct the overall community. This is poor UX for both the user and the community operators.
rvz 5y ago
> but I am not about trying to teach every person i want to talk with to not only download a new app but then walk them through how it works. As soon as they find out that a feature is lacking in Signal, they will just revert to the previous messenger that they were using. > Signal is truly some awesome tech and I don’t understand the hate. At least Element/Matrix is decentralized and is not just deployed on Google's Cloud as a centralized server and also doesn't have a untraceable ponzi cryptocurrency called MobileCoin as a feature that allows dark-net criminals, terrorists and extremists to fund their activities on a private blockchain. Now I can see why Signal is so attractive to dark-net criminals and extremists, but it doesn't matter since the only way to stop them making those private transactions so easily on Signal is for Google to take down Signal's GCP instance.
egberts1 5y ago
Matrix? Did you mean to say “Element” as in iOS?
jjav 5y ago
> Signal is truly some awesome tech and I don’t understand the hate. Signal has a frustratingly terrible client that I curse every day. But, I can sort of live with that. The big problem with Signal is that it has a proprietary client with no supported alternatives. The other fundamental problem with Signal is that it requires a phone number registration. I did it because I only use Signal to chat with some friends, but if I had to use something for truly private communication there is no way I would ever tie identity to a phone number.
- sigg3 5y ago
  > if I had to use something for truly private communication there is no way I would ever tie identity to a phone number. This is a confusion of terms. Privacy doesn't entail anonymity. Having a private conversation means exactly what Signal is offering: peer to peer encrypted communication. What you are referring to is a secret conversation. Signal is awesome as a replacement for SMS and any messenger using telephone number as ID.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kitkat_new 5y ago
    privacy is not only having private conversations, but keeping my phone number private instead of sharing it with everybody
    - bryan_w 5y ago
      It's a bit odd that it's a deal breaker for you to keep your phone number private with signal, as that would be your only option to communicate (via phone) if no messengers existed.
      - kitkat_new 5y ago
        ? I don't understand. 1. Messengers exist. 2. Isn't the SMS App not a messenger as well? What about Email? SMS style messaging can be implemented via Matrix as well. I am just confused by this comment. I just want to keep my phone number private
sofixa 5y ago
Signal's UX is pretty poor, like WhatsApp's. Both don't even come close to Telegram.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  What sets telegram apart?

omginternets 5y ago

France as well. And it’s actually a pretty solid app.