5 ms·

so "the US" could be offensive? Just curious, English is not my main language. EDIT: Also totally agree on your other comments about Signal vs Telegram

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Secretmapper 5y ago
No, the US is not particularly offensive. 'The Ukraine' specifically is offensive, because it is how Russia calls Ukraine, (kinda like implying it's The Ukraine of Russia)
- type0 5y ago
  or just as a territory e.g the Balkans
- cartesius13 5y ago
  >>...it is how Russia calls Ukraine But the russian language doesn't have definite articles, right? So is that how Russia calls Ukraine in international announcements and such? Do they even translate their messages to English themselves? I thought it was all in Russian and we translated If it's not that, what would be the equivalent of the definite article in russian? Maybe it's some other grammatical element that implies the same thing or something similar? This is actually kind of interesting from a linguistic perspective. I never knew definite article could such meanings in english
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > 'The Ukraine' specifically is offensive, because it is how Russia calls Ukraine But that's not even something it's possible to say in Russian. They couldn't say "the Ukraine" if they wanted to.
tyfon 5y ago
The united states of America has the definite article in it's name so in that case it is correct. For Ukraines case it would be more like, in my case, "the Norway" which to us would sound really weird. But not more than weird really. I think Ukrainians also feel it makes the country name sound like a territory, and I suspect there is some history here that we're not aware of.
- willis936 5y ago
  I think the most relevant history is the autocrat leading an invasion saying their nation is not sovereign. Agreeing with that statement would be rightfully upsetting.
  - tyfon 5y ago
    Yes, I was thinking it might run deeper too. The current insanity going on there is of course a reason in itself.
colechristensen 5y ago
“The US” or “the Netherlands” are not offensive to either. Ukraine specifically asked/ stated through official channels that it considered using “the” was inappropriate around the time of its independence and it should be fair enough to respect that. It seems to come from the transition to independence and trying to assert its brand of being more than just a region as “the Ukraine” was a sort of informal way to refer to the soviet republic, an image they are and have been obviously motivated to distance themselves from. Other places don’t have this historical reason to dislike “the” or equivalents in other languages. The US constitution even begins “We the People of the United States”, so we’re probably fine with it :)
- azinman2 5y ago
  United States and Netherlands are plural words. Ukraine is not. Would you say “the Mexico”? “The Brazil”? “The France”?
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    France is officially the French Republic, Mexico the United Mexican States, in those cases grammatically “the” is appropriate there. Alone “Mexico”, “France”, or “America” don’t get a “the” because grammatically it isn’t appropriate. Ukraine can because the word in local language has a common meaning, something like “borderlands” so it does work, but they ask nicely that you don’t.
    - azinman2 5y ago
      We’re not discussing the local language, we’re discussing the English language. If you add the type of government, then you use the. Mexico alone doesn’t use it, much like Ukraine doesn’t specify the type of government so it’s omitted.
  - technothrasher 5y ago
    I'm not sure plurality is the distinguishing feature, since you have The United Kingdom, The Czech Republic, and The Gambia. But none of that really matters; if the country says it doesn't use the definite article, it seems pretty straightforward to not do so.
LanternLight83 5y ago
"Ukraine" means outskirts, so one way to read it is that "Outskirts" is clearly the proper noun of a country, where-as "The outskirts" is a territory. "The US", however, means "The United States", which makes it really clear that you're talking about the States as a nation (or at least as organized states) and gives it a lot of resistance to this nuance. The cleanest equivalent would "America" vs "the Americas", but because that's clearly too broad. Where a single article is all it takes to change the implication in the case of Ukraine, here we'd need more explicitly refer to the land, like "the continental US territory". It's also worth noting that no one would be scrutinizing statements about the US in the same way because it doesn't have a context that puts it in dispute. At least in casual contexts, inaccuracies are often overlooked when what you meant to say is clear and uncontroversial.
- croes 5y ago
  The name "Outskirts" implies the question "Outskirts of what?" Maybe a name change would be appropriate.
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    Far be it from any of us to tell a country what it should name itself.
  - georgecmu 5y ago
    Outskirts of Poland and Russia. Regarding name change: be careful what you wish for; it may indeed be coming.
- rzz3 5y ago
  When it has a capital letter at the beginning, it’s perfectly clear that we’re referring to a country, rather than “the outskirts”. When our text is in English, it’s clear that “Ukraine” refers to a country, not “outskirts”. This is downright ridiculous and it’s annoying that some people are so deficient in application of contextual understanding that they criticize others in this way. Be nice to people and stop playing word police. This isn’t Reddit.
- 5y ago
qbasic_forever 5y ago
Brits calling the US "the colonies" would be a better comparison. "The Ukraine" is how the Soviet Union referred to the country when they ruled it. Modern, independent Ukraine does not want this association anymore (and rightfully so).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Secretmapper 5y ago

No, the US is not particularly offensive. 'The Ukraine' specifically is offensive, because it is how Russia calls Ukraine, (kinda like implying it's The Ukraine of Russia)

type0 5y ago
or just as a territory e.g the Balkans
cartesius13 5y ago
>>...it is how Russia calls Ukraine But the russian language doesn't have definite articles, right? So is that how Russia calls Ukraine in international announcements and such? Do they even translate their messages to English themselves? I thought it was all in Russian and we translated If it's not that, what would be the equivalent of the definite article in russian? Maybe it's some other grammatical element that implies the same thing or something similar? This is actually kind of interesting from a linguistic perspective. I never knew definite article could such meanings in english
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> 'The Ukraine' specifically is offensive, because it is how Russia calls Ukraine But that's not even something it's possible to say in Russian. They couldn't say "the Ukraine" if they wanted to.

tyfon 5y ago

The united states of America has the definite article in it's name so in that case it is correct. For Ukraines case it would be more like, in my case, "the Norway" which to us would sound really weird. But not more than weird really. I think Ukrainians also feel it makes the country name sound like a territory, and I suspect there is some history here that we're not aware of.

willis936 5y ago
I think the most relevant history is the autocrat leading an invasion saying their nation is not sovereign. Agreeing with that statement would be rightfully upsetting.
- tyfon 5y ago
  Yes, I was thinking it might run deeper too. The current insanity going on there is of course a reason in itself.

colechristensen 5y ago

“The US” or “the Netherlands” are not offensive to either. Ukraine specifically asked/ stated through official channels that it considered using “the” was inappropriate around the time of its independence and it should be fair enough to respect that. It seems to come from the transition to independence and trying to assert its brand of being more than just a region as “the Ukraine” was a sort of informal way to refer to the soviet republic, an image they are and have been obviously motivated to distance themselves from. Other places don’t have this historical reason to dislike “the” or equivalents in other languages. The US constitution even begins “We the People of the United States”, so we’re probably fine with it :)

azinman2 5y ago
United States and Netherlands are plural words. Ukraine is not. Would you say “the Mexico”? “The Brazil”? “The France”?
- colechristensen 5y ago
  France is officially the French Republic, Mexico the United Mexican States, in those cases grammatically “the” is appropriate there. Alone “Mexico”, “France”, or “America” don’t get a “the” because grammatically it isn’t appropriate. Ukraine can because the word in local language has a common meaning, something like “borderlands” so it does work, but they ask nicely that you don’t.
  - azinman2 5y ago
    We’re not discussing the local language, we’re discussing the English language. If you add the type of government, then you use the. Mexico alone doesn’t use it, much like Ukraine doesn’t specify the type of government so it’s omitted.
- technothrasher 5y ago
  I'm not sure plurality is the distinguishing feature, since you have The United Kingdom, The Czech Republic, and The Gambia. But none of that really matters; if the country says it doesn't use the definite article, it seems pretty straightforward to not do so.

LanternLight83 5y ago

"Ukraine" means outskirts, so one way to read it is that "Outskirts" is clearly the proper noun of a country, where-as "The outskirts" is a territory. "The US", however, means "The United States", which makes it really clear that you're talking about the States as a nation (or at least as organized states) and gives it a lot of resistance to this nuance. The cleanest equivalent would "America" vs "the Americas", but because that's clearly too broad. Where a single article is all it takes to change the implication in the case of Ukraine, here we'd need more explicitly refer to the land, like "the continental US territory". It's also worth noting that no one would be scrutinizing statements about the US in the same way because it doesn't have a context that puts it in dispute. At least in casual contexts, inaccuracies are often overlooked when what you meant to say is clear and uncontroversial.

croes 5y ago
The name "Outskirts" implies the question "Outskirts of what?" Maybe a name change would be appropriate.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Far be it from any of us to tell a country what it should name itself.
- georgecmu 5y ago
  Outskirts of Poland and Russia. Regarding name change: be careful what you wish for; it may indeed be coming.
rzz3 5y ago
When it has a capital letter at the beginning, it’s perfectly clear that we’re referring to a country, rather than “the outskirts”. When our text is in English, it’s clear that “Ukraine” refers to a country, not “outskirts”. This is downright ridiculous and it’s annoying that some people are so deficient in application of contextual understanding that they criticize others in this way. Be nice to people and stop playing word police. This isn’t Reddit.
5y ago

qbasic_forever 5y ago

Brits calling the US "the colonies" would be a better comparison. "The Ukraine" is how the Soviet Union referred to the country when they ruled it. Modern, independent Ukraine does not want this association anymore (and rightfully so).