4 ms·

I am an indian & have been in valley for last couple of decades. anecdotally speaking between me and my friends I have never heard of the caste based discrimina

I am an indian & have been in valley for last couple of decades. anecdotally speaking between me and my friends I have never heard of the caste based discrimination until that cisco case. so much so that people would bring it up at gatherings etc. Also in case anyone is wondering, I do not belong to the upper caste and most of my friends like me are not (not dalits either). btw in my experience internet dating & marriage sites have done more to break cast barriers in india than any social or affirmative action movement. I do think that it would take another generation for serious damage to happen to the caste system because towns & villages are still very much ingrained in this shit.

sangnoir 5y ago
To quote a saying popularized by Donald Rumsfield: "The absence of evidence is not th evidence of absence". I - a male - haven't heard of any stories of sexual harassment or assault in my social circle (or at the office), but that doesn't mean it's not happening.
- DesiLurker 5y ago
  yes that is clearly recognized by use of the word 'anecdotally'. the key takeaway from my comment should be the fact that this incident is considered to have enough of a 'signal' to be considered a conversation topic. Also, the fact that it comes as a surprise to everybody I speak to should not be ignored.
- ThinkingAgain 5y ago
  Thanks for this perspective on sexual harassment. It helped me realize that eventhough I have not seen it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have never seen sexual harassment but am certain it exists. I was thinking the problem is limited to India and will not get carried over to US or tech industry in India. Was not expecting to see caste system in US too and was doubting if it was real. I had heard one story where adults in US were introducing themselves with caste. This story talks about even the kids are introducing with their caste. What are we teaching kids? Every Indian should read this. It doesn't matter if you discriminate or not, the person suffering is not dealing with just you but lots of people. Even if a small percentage discriminate that is bad enough for that person to feel vulnerable for long time.
- himinlomax 5y ago
  > I - a male - haven't heard of any stories of sexual harassment or assault in my social circle (or at the office), but that doesn't mean it's not happening. Counter-point: many cases of sexual harassment seem to occur over a long time, where the problematic behavior is known or suspected widely -- it's just that nothing is done. Consider: I don't care for celebrities or Hollywood, I'm not American, but I knew Weinstein for being a pig long before he got cancelled, mostly through offhand jokes from comedians. I didn't really know how big of a deal in his business he was, I just knew that everyone seemed to know that he was a pig. So when he finally got cancelled, what surprised me is that I sort of thought that he already had been. I've known of few instance of much less prominent harassment (sexual or otherwise for that matter) at the periphery of my social circle, and it was a similar phenomenon. I believe there is a type of people that does that kind of things (narcissists), the problem I suspect is that they tend to also be good at manipulating people so that they can keep doing damage for a long time.
flat-pluto 5y ago
"have never heard of the caste based discrimination until that cisco case" I didn't hear of it either until I noticed large groups of Indian-origin devs and managers (mostly at older companies such as IBM, Oracle, etc), and somehow only the 'upper caste' folks would get promoted and be invited to happy hours and such. How much that can be attributed to inter-personal relationships and professional competence as opposed to outright discrimination, one will never know but a pattern does emerge. It's never in your face discrimination, just subtle favoritism towards one's group. Mind you, this happens with people from the same Indian state as well. They'll often speak in their regional language during meetings even though not everyone speaks that language, which simply goes on to alienate that team member. (This has happened to friends of mine at T-Mobile and Intel) "marriage sites have done more to break cast barriers in india" Not sure if I agree with you there. It has brought to light just how prevalent that kind of thinking is. It's a common trope on Indian matrimonial websites how users have a list of requirements (Looking for fair skinned, Hindu upper caste, etc). Maybe that has helped break cast barriers by bringing it to light, I don't know, but it was really surprising when I came upon it for the first time.
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  It’s modernity, of which these sites are a part. Only marrying within one’s caste is a way point from only marrying in one’s jati, on the way to caring about socioeconomic status and not much else. In the US marrying within the religion, but outside the ethnic group lasted at most 50 years. Panmictia is coming.

sangnoir 5y ago

To quote a saying popularized by Donald Rumsfield: "The absence of evidence is not th evidence of absence". I - a male - haven't heard of any stories of sexual harassment or assault in my social circle (or at the office), but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

DesiLurker 5y ago
yes that is clearly recognized by use of the word 'anecdotally'. the key takeaway from my comment should be the fact that this incident is considered to have enough of a 'signal' to be considered a conversation topic. Also, the fact that it comes as a surprise to everybody I speak to should not be ignored.
ThinkingAgain 5y ago
Thanks for this perspective on sexual harassment. It helped me realize that eventhough I have not seen it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have never seen sexual harassment but am certain it exists. I was thinking the problem is limited to India and will not get carried over to US or tech industry in India. Was not expecting to see caste system in US too and was doubting if it was real. I had heard one story where adults in US were introducing themselves with caste. This story talks about even the kids are introducing with their caste. What are we teaching kids? Every Indian should read this. It doesn't matter if you discriminate or not, the person suffering is not dealing with just you but lots of people. Even if a small percentage discriminate that is bad enough for that person to feel vulnerable for long time.
himinlomax 5y ago
> I - a male - haven't heard of any stories of sexual harassment or assault in my social circle (or at the office), but that doesn't mean it's not happening. Counter-point: many cases of sexual harassment seem to occur over a long time, where the problematic behavior is known or suspected widely -- it's just that nothing is done. Consider: I don't care for celebrities or Hollywood, I'm not American, but I knew Weinstein for being a pig long before he got cancelled, mostly through offhand jokes from comedians. I didn't really know how big of a deal in his business he was, I just knew that everyone seemed to know that he was a pig. So when he finally got cancelled, what surprised me is that I sort of thought that he already had been. I've known of few instance of much less prominent harassment (sexual or otherwise for that matter) at the periphery of my social circle, and it was a similar phenomenon. I believe there is a type of people that does that kind of things (narcissists), the problem I suspect is that they tend to also be good at manipulating people so that they can keep doing damage for a long time.

flat-pluto 5y ago

"have never heard of the caste based discrimination until that cisco case" I didn't hear of it either until I noticed large groups of Indian-origin devs and managers (mostly at older companies such as IBM, Oracle, etc), and somehow only the 'upper caste' folks would get promoted and be invited to happy hours and such. How much that can be attributed to inter-personal relationships and professional competence as opposed to outright discrimination, one will never know but a pattern does emerge. It's never in your face discrimination, just subtle favoritism towards one's group. Mind you, this happens with people from the same Indian state as well. They'll often speak in their regional language during meetings even though not everyone speaks that language, which simply goes on to alienate that team member. (This has happened to friends of mine at T-Mobile and Intel) "marriage sites have done more to break cast barriers in india" Not sure if I agree with you there. It has brought to light just how prevalent that kind of thinking is. It's a common trope on Indian matrimonial websites how users have a list of requirements (Looking for fair skinned, Hindu upper caste, etc). Maybe that has helped break cast barriers by bringing it to light, I don't know, but it was really surprising when I came upon it for the first time.

barry-cotter 5y ago
It’s modernity, of which these sites are a part. Only marrying within one’s caste is a way point from only marrying in one’s jati, on the way to caring about socioeconomic status and not much else. In the US marrying within the religion, but outside the ethnic group lasted at most 50 years. Panmictia is coming.