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> with absolutely no provocation This is false. NATO in 2008 invited Ukraine to join. This is the equivalent of Cuba inviting Russia to setup a military base o

by itake 5y ago

> with absolutely no provocation This is false. NATO in 2008 invited Ukraine to join. This is the equivalent of Cuba inviting Russia to setup a military base on US borders. The US's reaction was to economically nuke Cuba. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

pedalpete 5y ago
The US did not invade Cuba... Ok, there was the Bay of Pigs, but the US pulled out support at the last minute. Had they invaded Cuba we'd be using that as an example of where the US did the wrong thing by invading a sovereign country (there are other examples...FYI, I'm not American). As I commented elsewhere, this is a 14 year old invitation.
- itake 5y ago
  > The resultant lack of food and medicine to Cuba contributed to the worst epidemic of neurological disease this century. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8942780/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8942780/ We didn't take up arms, we just starved Cuba to death and didn't give them access to modern medicine.
  - pedalpete 5y ago
    Though I am aware of the blockade (I'm not American), I was not aware of the humanitarian crisis it caused. The document you linked clearly states that the US now recognizes this was a mistake. "The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights of the Organization of American States has informed the US Government that such activities violate international law and has requested that the US take immediate steps to exempt food and medicine from the embargo." But your initial comment was if Ukraine provoked Russia, so you're going down a rabbit hole of history that has no bearing on this.
    - vba616 5y ago
      You think an embargo is a blockade is US policy?
  - vba616 5y ago
    The US agreed not to invade again and also remove missiles in Europe in return for the missiles being removed from Cuba. That's conspicuously not what happened with Ukraine. It could not be more not what happened with Ukraine. Cuba makes no sense as an argument about current events, and if it did, one could have a conversation without random whatabouts.
    - itake 5y ago
      russia wanted to deploy forces in the USA's borders. USA wants to deploy forces on Russia's borders. I don't see the difference.
      - vba616 5y ago
        Yes, I was working with your premise! The parallelism as you see/state it. You don't see a difference in what caused the crisis, right, sure. THEN what happened? In both cases, there was precedent for violating sovereignty. Bay of Pigs with the US, and Crimea with Russia, among other things. But the US agreed to not invade again, and Russia on the other hand...invaded.
_ph_ 5y ago
No, NATO didn't invite Ukraine to join. Ukraine wanted to join but NATO didn't reach unanimous decision to allow Ukraine to join. Back then Germany voted against Ukraine joining, out of consideration for Russias interests. Since then, there was no new movement for a NATO membership. And again, during the last minute diplomatic efforts, the German chancellor very clearly offered to Putin, that the question of an Ukrainian NATO membership would be decided quite far into the future. So there was no actual thread of a NATO membership - any claims of that were just a made-up reason by Putin. Also, while a lot of former Warshaw Pact countries did join the NATO, the NATO didn't install a permanent military presence in those countries.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Also, while a lot of former Warshaw Pact countries did join the NATO, the NATO didn't install a permanent military presence in those countries. Well, after those countries became NATO countries their own militaries were NATO militaries, so of course NATO has a permanent military presence in those countries. Unless they totally demilitarised.
- itake 5y ago
  > NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm This is on NATO's website from 2008 meeting. How is "welcomes" not be interpreted as an invitation?
  - _ph_ 5y ago
    Well, yes, it is an invitation. But NATO didn't let the Ukraine join, that was blocked by at least Germany. And on during his visit in Moscow, Chanceller Scholz basically offered Putin that Ukraine joining into NATO could be very far in an undetermined future.
vba616 5y ago
Comparing the Cuban missile crisis to now is mindblowing...why do people think it makes sense as a defense of Russia? The USSR put missiles in Cuba, and got the US to agree not to invade and to withdraw missiles from eastern Europe. We need to know about the parallel universe where the "NATO aggression" results in Russia agreeing not to invade Ukraine.

by itake 5y ago

pedalpete 5y ago

The US did not invade Cuba... Ok, there was the Bay of Pigs, but the US pulled out support at the last minute. Had they invaded Cuba we'd be using that as an example of where the US did the wrong thing by invading a sovereign country (there are other examples...FYI, I'm not American). As I commented elsewhere, this is a 14 year old invitation.

itake 5y ago
> The resultant lack of food and medicine to Cuba contributed to the worst epidemic of neurological disease this century. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8942780/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8942780/ We didn't take up arms, we just starved Cuba to death and didn't give them access to modern medicine.
- pedalpete 5y ago
  Though I am aware of the blockade (I'm not American), I was not aware of the humanitarian crisis it caused. The document you linked clearly states that the US now recognizes this was a mistake. "The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights of the Organization of American States has informed the US Government that such activities violate international law and has requested that the US take immediate steps to exempt food and medicine from the embargo." But your initial comment was if Ukraine provoked Russia, so you're going down a rabbit hole of history that has no bearing on this.
  - vba616 5y ago
    You think an embargo is a blockade is US policy?
- vba616 5y ago
  The US agreed not to invade again and also remove missiles in Europe in return for the missiles being removed from Cuba. That's conspicuously not what happened with Ukraine. It could not be more not what happened with Ukraine. Cuba makes no sense as an argument about current events, and if it did, one could have a conversation without random whatabouts.
  - itake 5y ago
    russia wanted to deploy forces in the USA's borders. USA wants to deploy forces on Russia's borders. I don't see the difference.
    - vba616 5y ago
      Yes, I was working with your premise! The parallelism as you see/state it. You don't see a difference in what caused the crisis, right, sure. THEN what happened? In both cases, there was precedent for violating sovereignty. Bay of Pigs with the US, and Crimea with Russia, among other things. But the US agreed to not invade again, and Russia on the other hand...invaded.

_ph_ 5y ago

No, NATO didn't invite Ukraine to join. Ukraine wanted to join but NATO didn't reach unanimous decision to allow Ukraine to join. Back then Germany voted against Ukraine joining, out of consideration for Russias interests. Since then, there was no new movement for a NATO membership. And again, during the last minute diplomatic efforts, the German chancellor very clearly offered to Putin, that the question of an Ukrainian NATO membership would be decided quite far into the future. So there was no actual thread of a NATO membership - any claims of that were just a made-up reason by Putin. Also, while a lot of former Warshaw Pact countries did join the NATO, the NATO didn't install a permanent military presence in those countries.

CRConrad 5y ago
> Also, while a lot of former Warshaw Pact countries did join the NATO, the NATO didn't install a permanent military presence in those countries. Well, after those countries became NATO countries their own militaries were NATO militaries, so of course NATO has a permanent military presence in those countries. Unless they totally demilitarised.
itake 5y ago
> NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm This is on NATO's website from 2008 meeting. How is "welcomes" not be interpreted as an invitation?
- _ph_ 5y ago
  Well, yes, it is an invitation. But NATO didn't let the Ukraine join, that was blocked by at least Germany. And on during his visit in Moscow, Chanceller Scholz basically offered Putin that Ukraine joining into NATO could be very far in an undetermined future.

vba616 5y ago

Comparing the Cuban missile crisis to now is mindblowing...why do people think it makes sense as a defense of Russia? The USSR put missiles in Cuba, and got the US to agree not to invade and to withdraw missiles from eastern Europe. We need to know about the parallel universe where the "NATO aggression" results in Russia agreeing not to invade Ukraine.