4 ms·

Okay so curious, I have a South Indian neighbor who is Muslim. I assume Muslims are just a different thing outside of the caste system, despite people saying ca

by wincy 5y ago

Okay so curious, I have a South Indian neighbor who is Muslim. I assume Muslims are just a different thing outside of the caste system, despite people saying caste is not rooted in Hinduism? (I’m not saying it is, just curious how an Indian might view their Muslim neighbors).

belval 5y ago
Seems to exist for Indian muslims as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian...
- tsol 5y ago
  Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim. Still I don't deny that it happens, especially in areas with less education. By creed it doesn't make sense-- as a popular hadith says "no Arab is better than a non Arab and no white is better than a black, except by piety and good deeds". Of course this hasn't stopped the ignorant in the past(unfortunately)
  - kamaal 5y ago
    Among muslims themselves its practically non-existent. Speaking as a Muslim, the way the Indian society perceives us, we are the lowest of the lowest castes. Muslims themselves perceive our layer as fairly flat. This is mostly because most muslims themselves have been caste refugees to a new religion(Islam) in the past. And for the better wouldn't want to go back to that history.
    - thowaway_2mar 5y ago
      Not true, you maybe an "upper-caste muslim". 1 ) https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-churn-85-backward-pasmandas-up-against-15-ashrafs/234599/ https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-... 2) https://www.opindia.com/2020/10/muslim-social-hierarchy-caste-system-ajlaf-ashraf/ https://www.opindia.com/2020/10/muslim-social-hierarchy-cast... 3) https://theprint.in/opinion/pasmanda-muslims-missing-from-positions-of-power-waqf-board-to-jamaat-e-islami/746464/ https://theprint.in/opinion/pasmanda-muslims-missing-from-po... 4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENVbLrJOQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENVbLrJOQw 5) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/we-need-a-caste-census-of-muslim-community-too-says-pasmanda-community-leader-khalid-anis-ansari/article36227039.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/we-need-a-caste-censu... 6) https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/dilip-kumar-the-gardener-of-the-pasmanda-movement-1005877.html https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/dilip-kumar-the-gardene... 7) https://thewire.in/caste/lower-caste-muslims-in-up-forge-new-solidarities-ahead-of-assembly-elections https://thewire.in/caste/lower-caste-muslims-in-up-forge-new... Emancipation of the Dalit Muslims hasn't yet occurred, Hindu-Muslim binary contributes to this oppression of Pasmanda and Dalit/ lower caste Muslims. The oppressor can never understand the pain of the oppressed. How many lower caste Muslims ruled India? Why 90% of the Muslims politicians are upper caste ashrafs/syeeds? Ashraf hegemony must end.
      - kamaal 5y ago
        Im as lowest as lowest goes. Like whole family used to sleep in a small room, seen struggle for food and finished engineering with help of lots of people and scholarships. Dad started with manual labor work, and things like cutting wood in forests when he started. Retired as a taxi driver. Not seen any caste system in muslims, let alone discrimination of any kind. Looks like desparate attempt from Hindus to drag muslims into this just to be able to say 'Its not just us'.
  - thowaway_2mar 5y ago
    ^ Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim. Just read the oppression Indian lower caste untouchable Muslims face in India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasmanda_Muslim_Mahaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasmanda_Muslim_Mahaz Upper caste dominant ashraf/sayeed Muslims in India have tried to label the people of the Mahaz as "un-Islamic heretics", which is a form of propaganda against them. Same is the case in Pakistan. We all are Muslims and we don't have castes. Unless it's about an upper-caste Muslim woman marrying a lower caste untouchable muslim.
- azifali 5y ago
  Caste system exists in Muslims in India albeit at much lower levels than mainstream Indian Hindus. Muslims have been more steadily organizing as Sunnis, Shias and everyone else. But invisible cultural barriers exist when it comes to language even though caste barriers have gone away.
selimthegrim 5y ago
My Muslim grandfather grew up in what is now Indian state of Karnataka (Gulbarga). When he would touch metal utensils of neighboring high caste family, they would curse at him and wash them, so he would do it to wind them up every so often. Although it's not always that straightfoward. In Gujarat, Muslims used to be able to "cancel" caste pollution - that is, if you touched a Dalit and then touched a Muslim you wouldn't have to purify yourself.
vishnugupta 5y ago
Caste system of India is somewhat unique in the sense that it gets superimposed on almost every religion in India. So no, Muslim/Islam religion hasn’t escaped caste trap in India. There are upper caste, lower caste etc. For instance, leather/tanning work is typically done by lower caste Muslims compared to say a merchant. Let me further drive home my point. “Lingayat” is a religion created explicitly to be outside of caste system. To an extent they consider themselves to be of a different religion from Hinduism. Though superficially you can’t tell the difference because culturally they are very similar to Hinduism. But after a few centuries, Lingayats now have their own caste hierarchy. Almost parallel to Hindu caste system. https://karepass.cgg.gov.in/CasteReport.do?actionParameter=CasteWise&castecat_code=5 https://karepass.cgg.gov.in/CasteReport.do?actionParameter=C...

by wincy 5y ago

belval 5y ago

Seems to exist for Indian muslims as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian...

tsol 5y ago
Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim. Still I don't deny that it happens, especially in areas with less education. By creed it doesn't make sense-- as a popular hadith says "no Arab is better than a non Arab and no white is better than a black, except by piety and good deeds". Of course this hasn't stopped the ignorant in the past(unfortunately)
- kamaal 5y ago
  Among muslims themselves its practically non-existent. Speaking as a Muslim, the way the Indian society perceives us, we are the lowest of the lowest castes. Muslims themselves perceive our layer as fairly flat. This is mostly because most muslims themselves have been caste refugees to a new religion(Islam) in the past. And for the better wouldn't want to go back to that history.
  - thowaway_2mar 5y ago
    Not true, you maybe an "upper-caste muslim". 1 ) https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-churn-85-backward-pasmandas-up-against-15-ashrafs/234599/ https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-... 2) https://www.opindia.com/2020/10/muslim-social-hierarchy-caste-system-ajlaf-ashraf/ https://www.opindia.com/2020/10/muslim-social-hierarchy-cast... 3) https://theprint.in/opinion/pasmanda-muslims-missing-from-positions-of-power-waqf-board-to-jamaat-e-islami/746464/ https://theprint.in/opinion/pasmanda-muslims-missing-from-po... 4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENVbLrJOQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENVbLrJOQw 5) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/we-need-a-caste-census-of-muslim-community-too-says-pasmanda-community-leader-khalid-anis-ansari/article36227039.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/we-need-a-caste-censu... 6) https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/dilip-kumar-the-gardener-of-the-pasmanda-movement-1005877.html https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/dilip-kumar-the-gardene... 7) https://thewire.in/caste/lower-caste-muslims-in-up-forge-new-solidarities-ahead-of-assembly-elections https://thewire.in/caste/lower-caste-muslims-in-up-forge-new... Emancipation of the Dalit Muslims hasn't yet occurred, Hindu-Muslim binary contributes to this oppression of Pasmanda and Dalit/ lower caste Muslims. The oppressor can never understand the pain of the oppressed. How many lower caste Muslims ruled India? Why 90% of the Muslims politicians are upper caste ashrafs/syeeds? Ashraf hegemony must end.
    - kamaal 5y ago
      Im as lowest as lowest goes. Like whole family used to sleep in a small room, seen struggle for food and finished engineering with help of lots of people and scholarships. Dad started with manual labor work, and things like cutting wood in forests when he started. Retired as a taxi driver. Not seen any caste system in muslims, let alone discrimination of any kind. Looks like desparate attempt from Hindus to drag muslims into this just to be able to say 'Its not just us'.
- thowaway_2mar 5y ago
  ^ Anecdotally I believe it occurs in a much lower amount, I haven't seen it at all as an Indian Muslim. Just read the oppression Indian lower caste untouchable Muslims face in India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasmanda_Muslim_Mahaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasmanda_Muslim_Mahaz Upper caste dominant ashraf/sayeed Muslims in India have tried to label the people of the Mahaz as "un-Islamic heretics", which is a form of propaganda against them. Same is the case in Pakistan. We all are Muslims and we don't have castes. Unless it's about an upper-caste Muslim woman marrying a lower caste untouchable muslim.
azifali 5y ago
Caste system exists in Muslims in India albeit at much lower levels than mainstream Indian Hindus. Muslims have been more steadily organizing as Sunnis, Shias and everyone else. But invisible cultural barriers exist when it comes to language even though caste barriers have gone away.

selimthegrim 5y ago

My Muslim grandfather grew up in what is now Indian state of Karnataka (Gulbarga). When he would touch metal utensils of neighboring high caste family, they would curse at him and wash them, so he would do it to wind them up every so often. Although it's not always that straightfoward. In Gujarat, Muslims used to be able to "cancel" caste pollution - that is, if you touched a Dalit and then touched a Muslim you wouldn't have to purify yourself.

vishnugupta 5y ago

Caste system of India is somewhat unique in the sense that it gets superimposed on almost every religion in India. So no, Muslim/Islam religion hasn’t escaped caste trap in India. There are upper caste, lower caste etc. For instance, leather/tanning work is typically done by lower caste Muslims compared to say a merchant. Let me further drive home my point. “Lingayat” is a religion created explicitly to be outside of caste system. To an extent they consider themselves to be of a different religion from Hinduism. Though superficially you can’t tell the difference because culturally they are very similar to Hinduism. But after a few centuries, Lingayats now have their own caste hierarchy. Almost parallel to Hindu caste system. https://karepass.cgg.gov.in/CasteReport.do?actionParameter=CasteWise&castecat_code=5 https://karepass.cgg.gov.in/CasteReport.do?actionParameter=C...