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I didn't say NATO, I said "the west", but you're right, I probably should have said "the world" or something else. A major superpower decided to invade a sover

I didn't say NATO, I said "the west", but you're right, I probably should have said "the world" or something else. A major superpower decided to invade a sovereign country with absolutely no provocation with the goal of extending their borders. This isn't the first time this has happened, and it won't be the last. It shouldn't be allowed. Let's be clear here as well. Russia is not the only country to have done this. Western countries have been just as guilty in the past.

nevermindiguess 5y ago
You are not correct when you say “without provocation”. The UKR government had been assaulting its own ethnically-Russian citizens in Donbass four 8 years. Russia went in to stop that. There are many journalistic documents that prove those societies.
- pedalpete 5y ago
  Link to the documents? I appreciate we are getting differing stories depending on what media you see.
- kelnos 5y ago
  I'm not sure what to believe anymore, honestly. Certainly there has been military action between Kyiv and the separatists. But there's been so much anti-Ukraine propaganda coming out of Russia in the past 8 years, plus what seems to be questionable or incomplete reporting from Western outlets, that it's hard to know where the truth is. Did the separatist movements start because of Russian agitation, or because of actions the government of Ukraine took? Is Ukraine targeting ethnic Russians in the Donbass region, or are they just attacking separatists, who maybe(?) happen to mostly be ethnic Russians? I'm having a hard time understanding the true history here.
itake 5y ago
> with absolutely no provocation This is false. NATO in 2008 invited Ukraine to join. This is the equivalent of Cuba inviting Russia to setup a military base on US borders. The US's reaction was to economically nuke Cuba. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
- pedalpete 5y ago
  The US did not invade Cuba... Ok, there was the Bay of Pigs, but the US pulled out support at the last minute. Had they invaded Cuba we'd be using that as an example of where the US did the wrong thing by invading a sovereign country (there are other examples...FYI, I'm not American). As I commented elsewhere, this is a 14 year old invitation.
  - itake 5y ago
    > The resultant lack of food and medicine to Cuba contributed to the worst epidemic of neurological disease this century. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8942780/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8942780/ We didn't take up arms, we just starved Cuba to death and didn't give them access to modern medicine.
    - pedalpete 5y ago
      Though I am aware of the blockade (I'm not American), I was not aware of the humanitarian crisis it caused. The document you linked clearly states that the US now recognizes this was a mistake. "The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights of the Organization of American States has informed the US Government that such activities violate international law and has requested that the US take immediate steps to exempt food and medicine from the embargo." But your initial comment was if Ukraine provoked Russia, so you're going down a rabbit hole of history that has no bearing on this.
      - vba616 5y ago
        You think an embargo is a blockade is US policy?
    - vba616 5y ago
      The US agreed not to invade again and also remove missiles in Europe in return for the missiles being removed from Cuba. That's conspicuously not what happened with Ukraine. It could not be more not what happened with Ukraine. Cuba makes no sense as an argument about current events, and if it did, one could have a conversation without random whatabouts.

nevermindiguess 5y ago

You are not correct when you say “without provocation”. The UKR government had been assaulting its own ethnically-Russian citizens in Donbass four 8 years. Russia went in to stop that. There are many journalistic documents that prove those societies.

pedalpete 5y ago
Link to the documents? I appreciate we are getting differing stories depending on what media you see.
kelnos 5y ago
I'm not sure what to believe anymore, honestly. Certainly there has been military action between Kyiv and the separatists. But there's been so much anti-Ukraine propaganda coming out of Russia in the past 8 years, plus what seems to be questionable or incomplete reporting from Western outlets, that it's hard to know where the truth is. Did the separatist movements start because of Russian agitation, or because of actions the government of Ukraine took? Is Ukraine targeting ethnic Russians in the Donbass region, or are they just attacking separatists, who maybe(?) happen to mostly be ethnic Russians? I'm having a hard time understanding the true history here.

itake 5y ago

> with absolutely no provocation This is false. NATO in 2008 invited Ukraine to join. This is the equivalent of Cuba inviting Russia to setup a military base on US borders. The US's reaction was to economically nuke Cuba. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

pedalpete 5y ago
The US did not invade Cuba... Ok, there was the Bay of Pigs, but the US pulled out support at the last minute. Had they invaded Cuba we'd be using that as an example of where the US did the wrong thing by invading a sovereign country (there are other examples...FYI, I'm not American). As I commented elsewhere, this is a 14 year old invitation.
- itake 5y ago
  > The resultant lack of food and medicine to Cuba contributed to the worst epidemic of neurological disease this century. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8942780/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8942780/ We didn't take up arms, we just starved Cuba to death and didn't give them access to modern medicine.
  - pedalpete 5y ago
    Though I am aware of the blockade (I'm not American), I was not aware of the humanitarian crisis it caused. The document you linked clearly states that the US now recognizes this was a mistake. "The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights of the Organization of American States has informed the US Government that such activities violate international law and has requested that the US take immediate steps to exempt food and medicine from the embargo." But your initial comment was if Ukraine provoked Russia, so you're going down a rabbit hole of history that has no bearing on this.
    - vba616 5y ago
      You think an embargo is a blockade is US policy?
  - vba616 5y ago
    The US agreed not to invade again and also remove missiles in Europe in return for the missiles being removed from Cuba. That's conspicuously not what happened with Ukraine. It could not be more not what happened with Ukraine. Cuba makes no sense as an argument about current events, and if it did, one could have a conversation without random whatabouts.