5 ms·

> probably because they believed that Russia would easily walk over Ukraine Sorry to be brass, but why would NATO support Ukraine? Its not a strategy ally. The

by itake 5y ago

> probably because they believed that Russia would easily walk over Ukraine Sorry to be brass, but why would NATO support Ukraine? Its not a strategy ally. There aren't any special resources there. I don't know why the US was tempting Ukraine to join NATO in the first place.

sidibe 5y ago
With neighbors like Ukraine has article 5 is the obvious temptation, USA didn't have to do anything. Believe it or not Ukrainians can have their own opinions and not everything they do is because of they are pawns
- itake 5y ago
  There are several guilty parties. US/NATO are not fully responsible.
  - sidibe 5y ago
    I can't help but read that as you acknowledging Ukraine deserves some of the guilt of wanting to join NATO instead of just the USA's fault, which is definitely not what I meant. Russia is the lone guilty party in this invasion, or more specifically Putin, I feel pretty awful for the poor soldiers who are getting killed in foreign land or forced to play role of occupier to hostile locals. People who understand his concerns about NATO are people who have bought his lies.
    - itake 5y ago
      Question: Whose fault was the Cuban Missile crisis and post-crisis economic sanctions of Cuba?
      - Paradigma11 5y ago
        Mostly the fault of the USA. But lets not forget the ridiculous scale and number of military interventions Cubas worldwide. They were hardly an innocent bystander during the cold war but a very active opponent.
rblatz 5y ago
In what ways was the US tempting Ukraine to join NATO? Because NATO expansionism is the core of Russia's propaganda, along with other non-sense like clearing the country of Jewish Nazism.
- itake 5y ago
  Bucharest Summit Declaration 2008 > NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
  - pedalpete 5y ago
    It's 2022. You're pointing to a declaration that is 14 years old. Do you have anything more current? Why the invasion now?
    - tommiegannert 5y ago
      I have been wondering the same thing; what was the trigger? Maybe new ties to Turkey: > Over the past two years, NATO member Turkey and Ukraine have bolstered defense industry ties, including an agreement by Turkish drone-maker Baykar to build a production facility near Kyiv for its popular Bayraktar TB2 drone. The Ukrainian government has also dubbed Turkey "one of its key economic partners." https://www.dw.com/en/turkeys-intelligence-agency-abducts-arms-dealer-in-ukraine/a-60634563 https://www.dw.com/en/turkeys-intelligence-agency-abducts-ar...
    - itake 5y ago
      Russia Annex Crimea in response to that in 2012. Russia's power and economy is weakening. They needed time to prepare their forces and complete their Crimea annexation. We also had COVID in 2019-2022.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    So Ukraine says "hey, we think we probably want to join NATO". And NATO responds "cool, that sounds good", and... so what? Ukraine is a sovereign nation and should be allowed to ally itself with whatever country or group it wants to. Perhaps Russia should take a hard look at why Ukraine didn't feel that allying with Russia would be in their best interests?
pedalpete 5y ago
I didn't say NATO, I said "the west", but you're right, I probably should have said "the world" or something else. A major superpower decided to invade a sovereign country with absolutely no provocation with the goal of extending their borders. This isn't the first time this has happened, and it won't be the last. It shouldn't be allowed. Let's be clear here as well. Russia is not the only country to have done this. Western countries have been just as guilty in the past.
- nevermindiguess 5y ago
  You are not correct when you say “without provocation”. The UKR government had been assaulting its own ethnically-Russian citizens in Donbass four 8 years. Russia went in to stop that. There are many journalistic documents that prove those societies.
  - pedalpete 5y ago
    Link to the documents? I appreciate we are getting differing stories depending on what media you see.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    I'm not sure what to believe anymore, honestly. Certainly there has been military action between Kyiv and the separatists. But there's been so much anti-Ukraine propaganda coming out of Russia in the past 8 years, plus what seems to be questionable or incomplete reporting from Western outlets, that it's hard to know where the truth is. Did the separatist movements start because of Russian agitation, or because of actions the government of Ukraine took? Is Ukraine targeting ethnic Russians in the Donbass region, or are they just attacking separatists, who maybe(?) happen to mostly be ethnic Russians? I'm having a hard time understanding the true history here.
- itake 5y ago
  > with absolutely no provocation This is false. NATO in 2008 invited Ukraine to join. This is the equivalent of Cuba inviting Russia to setup a military base on US borders. The US's reaction was to economically nuke Cuba. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

by itake 5y ago

sidibe 5y ago

With neighbors like Ukraine has article 5 is the obvious temptation, USA didn't have to do anything. Believe it or not Ukrainians can have their own opinions and not everything they do is because of they are pawns

itake 5y ago
There are several guilty parties. US/NATO are not fully responsible.
- sidibe 5y ago
  I can't help but read that as you acknowledging Ukraine deserves some of the guilt of wanting to join NATO instead of just the USA's fault, which is definitely not what I meant. Russia is the lone guilty party in this invasion, or more specifically Putin, I feel pretty awful for the poor soldiers who are getting killed in foreign land or forced to play role of occupier to hostile locals. People who understand his concerns about NATO are people who have bought his lies.
  - itake 5y ago
    Question: Whose fault was the Cuban Missile crisis and post-crisis economic sanctions of Cuba?
    - Paradigma11 5y ago
      Mostly the fault of the USA. But lets not forget the ridiculous scale and number of military interventions Cubas worldwide. They were hardly an innocent bystander during the cold war but a very active opponent.

rblatz 5y ago

In what ways was the US tempting Ukraine to join NATO? Because NATO expansionism is the core of Russia's propaganda, along with other non-sense like clearing the country of Jewish Nazism.

itake 5y ago
Bucharest Summit Declaration 2008 > NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
- pedalpete 5y ago
  It's 2022. You're pointing to a declaration that is 14 years old. Do you have anything more current? Why the invasion now?
  - tommiegannert 5y ago
    I have been wondering the same thing; what was the trigger? Maybe new ties to Turkey: > Over the past two years, NATO member Turkey and Ukraine have bolstered defense industry ties, including an agreement by Turkish drone-maker Baykar to build a production facility near Kyiv for its popular Bayraktar TB2 drone. The Ukrainian government has also dubbed Turkey "one of its key economic partners." https://www.dw.com/en/turkeys-intelligence-agency-abducts-arms-dealer-in-ukraine/a-60634563 https://www.dw.com/en/turkeys-intelligence-agency-abducts-ar...
  - itake 5y ago
    Russia Annex Crimea in response to that in 2012. Russia's power and economy is weakening. They needed time to prepare their forces and complete their Crimea annexation. We also had COVID in 2019-2022.
- kelnos 5y ago
  So Ukraine says "hey, we think we probably want to join NATO". And NATO responds "cool, that sounds good", and... so what? Ukraine is a sovereign nation and should be allowed to ally itself with whatever country or group it wants to. Perhaps Russia should take a hard look at why Ukraine didn't feel that allying with Russia would be in their best interests?

pedalpete 5y ago

I didn't say NATO, I said "the west", but you're right, I probably should have said "the world" or something else. A major superpower decided to invade a sovereign country with absolutely no provocation with the goal of extending their borders. This isn't the first time this has happened, and it won't be the last. It shouldn't be allowed. Let's be clear here as well. Russia is not the only country to have done this. Western countries have been just as guilty in the past.

nevermindiguess 5y ago
You are not correct when you say “without provocation”. The UKR government had been assaulting its own ethnically-Russian citizens in Donbass four 8 years. Russia went in to stop that. There are many journalistic documents that prove those societies.
- pedalpete 5y ago
  Link to the documents? I appreciate we are getting differing stories depending on what media you see.
- kelnos 5y ago
  I'm not sure what to believe anymore, honestly. Certainly there has been military action between Kyiv and the separatists. But there's been so much anti-Ukraine propaganda coming out of Russia in the past 8 years, plus what seems to be questionable or incomplete reporting from Western outlets, that it's hard to know where the truth is. Did the separatist movements start because of Russian agitation, or because of actions the government of Ukraine took? Is Ukraine targeting ethnic Russians in the Donbass region, or are they just attacking separatists, who maybe(?) happen to mostly be ethnic Russians? I'm having a hard time understanding the true history here.
itake 5y ago
> with absolutely no provocation This is false. NATO in 2008 invited Ukraine to join. This is the equivalent of Cuba inviting Russia to setup a military base on US borders. The US's reaction was to economically nuke Cuba. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm