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In an early stage startup, there are relatively few "defined" positions. Wanted: Smart people who will figure out what to do. Pay commensurate with added value

In an early stage startup, there are relatively few "defined" positions. Wanted: Smart people who will figure out what to do. Pay commensurate with added value.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Early stage startups are a very small slice of all employers (and the returns flow predominately to founders and VCs), probably best not to optimize labor law for their specific needs. And real talk, the pay is very unlikely to be commensurate with added value [1] [2]. EDIT: @stickfigure: I don't disagree. My comments are for the benefit of employees, not early startup owners/founders/investors. Sell the dream, I'm pointing out reality. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25488751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25488751 (cherry picked subthread, but the whole thread is very helpful on this topic) [2] https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ | https://danluu.com/startup-options/ https://danluu.com/startup-options/
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Early stage startups are prevalent on HN, which is the subject at hand. Also, half of Americans work for small businesses. It is probably best not to optimize labor law for megacorps either.
- freedomben 5y ago
  We're a non-profit. Any "VCs" are donating with no expectation of return, and the founders are the ones that bound their hands with the non-profit status in the first place.
michaelmcdonald 5y ago
> Pay commensurate with added value. In a statement like that they have an idea of what is valuable and what they would be willing to pay for it. Seems like a perfect opportunity to give a salary range.
dangus 5y ago
Why would smart people want to apply to a job with ambiguous compensation ranges? In what ways are being ambiguous better than being direct in a job listing? I'm going to remind everyone of this important idiom: As a business owner, nobody is as invested in your company as you. Even if your employees have a lot of passion for your business, even if they have a little "what-if" equity, they're never, ever going to have the same level of dedication to your role as you, the founder/owner/creator of that business. All of this is also to say: it is not a buyers market for skilled tech labor right now. If you're an early-stage, my advice is to start competing with the open market.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- freedomben 5y ago
  > Why would smart people want to apply to a job with ambiguous compensation ranges? People are motivated by many things, not just money. I took a major paycut to do something I believe strongly in. We're not a for-profit startup trying to make our founders rich. We're a non-profit trying to help people. To some people the feel-goods of that is worth a smaller paycheck. > In what ways are being ambiguous better than being direct in a job listing? Well, if the salary range is very broad then at best it's no helpful, at worst it's misleading. If we found a truly incredible person, we could potentially try to raise funding to meet a higher salary, particularly if hiring this person meant we didn't have to hire another person. In addition, if it's going to be really useful it takes precious time/effort away from engineering work (building the product and putting out fires) to try and create a matrix of salary ranges depending on all the factors. Some of the factors we probably don't even know yet.
  - dangus 5y ago
    It’s great that you found a non-profit, and that its mission motivates you. I realize that different motivators exist for different people, but I still don’t understand how not knowing the pay range upfront benefits anyone but the employer. The Chan Zuckerberg foundation is a non-profit. The NFL is a non-profit. Non-profits aren’t excluded from labor market conditions. Non-profits aren’t even obligated to be all that charitable in most cases. My employer could give me a massage every day but I’d still want to know the pay range.
danaris 5y ago
You may not have specific positions in mind, but if you don't have a rough idea "here are the kinds of things my startup will need to do in the near-to-medium term" and "this is roughly the amount I can afford to spend annually on positions I haven't yet hired for, in aggregate", then that doesn't sound like a company that's got a good future to me.

In an early stage startup, there are relatively few "defined" positions. Wanted: Smart people who will figure out what to do. Pay commensurate with added value.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

Early stage startups are a very small slice of all employers (and the returns flow predominately to founders and VCs), probably best not to optimize labor law for their specific needs. And real talk, the pay is very unlikely to be commensurate with added value [1] [2]. EDIT: @stickfigure: I don't disagree. My comments are for the benefit of employees, not early startup owners/founders/investors. Sell the dream, I'm pointing out reality. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25488751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25488751 (cherry picked subthread, but the whole thread is very helpful on this topic) [2] https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ | https://danluu.com/startup-options/ https://danluu.com/startup-options/

stickfigure 5y ago
Early stage startups are prevalent on HN, which is the subject at hand. Also, half of Americans work for small businesses. It is probably best not to optimize labor law for megacorps either.
freedomben 5y ago
We're a non-profit. Any "VCs" are donating with no expectation of return, and the founders are the ones that bound their hands with the non-profit status in the first place.

michaelmcdonald 5y ago

> Pay commensurate with added value. In a statement like that they have an idea of what is valuable and what they would be willing to pay for it. Seems like a perfect opportunity to give a salary range.

dangus 5y ago

Why would smart people want to apply to a job with ambiguous compensation ranges? In what ways are being ambiguous better than being direct in a job listing? I'm going to remind everyone of this important idiom: As a business owner, nobody is as invested in your company as you. Even if your employees have a lot of passion for your business, even if they have a little "what-if" equity, they're never, ever going to have the same level of dedication to your role as you, the founder/owner/creator of that business. All of this is also to say: it is not a buyers market for skilled tech labor right now. If you're an early-stage, my advice is to start competing with the open market.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
freedomben 5y ago
> Why would smart people want to apply to a job with ambiguous compensation ranges? People are motivated by many things, not just money. I took a major paycut to do something I believe strongly in. We're not a for-profit startup trying to make our founders rich. We're a non-profit trying to help people. To some people the feel-goods of that is worth a smaller paycheck. > In what ways are being ambiguous better than being direct in a job listing? Well, if the salary range is very broad then at best it's no helpful, at worst it's misleading. If we found a truly incredible person, we could potentially try to raise funding to meet a higher salary, particularly if hiring this person meant we didn't have to hire another person. In addition, if it's going to be really useful it takes precious time/effort away from engineering work (building the product and putting out fires) to try and create a matrix of salary ranges depending on all the factors. Some of the factors we probably don't even know yet.
- dangus 5y ago
  It’s great that you found a non-profit, and that its mission motivates you. I realize that different motivators exist for different people, but I still don’t understand how not knowing the pay range upfront benefits anyone but the employer. The Chan Zuckerberg foundation is a non-profit. The NFL is a non-profit. Non-profits aren’t excluded from labor market conditions. Non-profits aren’t even obligated to be all that charitable in most cases. My employer could give me a massage every day but I’d still want to know the pay range.

danaris 5y ago

You may not have specific positions in mind, but if you don't have a rough idea "here are the kinds of things my startup will need to do in the near-to-medium term" and "this is roughly the amount I can afford to spend annually on positions I haven't yet hired for, in aggregate", then that doesn't sound like a company that's got a good future to me.