2 ms·

You just listed a bunch of wishes, not things that can actually pass today… that’s the problem I’m pointing out.

wbsss4412 5y ago
Can is a matter of a small handful of people making a decision. Calling that wishful is abdicating responsibility. The point is we aren’t powerless, we just love acting like we are.
- criddell 5y ago
  The small handful of people have to answer to their constituents and voters are hostile to anything that will raise taxes or lower their quality of life today. That might change if things get bad enough, but by then it's probably too late for anything but a technological miracle. Non-democratic countries (like China and Russia) have a better chance of making the changes because there it truly is the case that a small number of people can bring about change.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    Explicitly raising taxes would be very unpopular, but there were plenty of things I listed that would get minimal pushback from the public at large. No one cares if UPS delivery trucks are electric. Very few people are policy wonks and will pay attention to changes in FHA bureaucracy. Voters have very limited bandwidth and attention. Most of what the federal government does, it does on its own initiative, with opposition from select special interests.
- moritzwarhier 5y ago
  I love how well you made that argument, although I am as disillusioned as your other respondent. Another problem is that countries are also in a global economic competition. The legislative frameworks still do not keep the costs of destroying the planet from being so low that doing so is an economic imperative.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    There are challenges with every policy option and you bring up an important one. However, that is not a universal obstacle to all policy solutions. Getting people to electrify their homes has minimal impact on global economic competition. Changing urban planning regimes has little (direct) impact on global economic competition. I’m not trying to imply it is easy. But it is still a choice that we can make is we can coordinate ourselves. I think the biggest challenge is simply the degree to which hyper individualism has taken over American culture and its effect on our collective psyche.
- seiferteric 5y ago
  I am really not trying to discourage anyone, and agree policy solutions should be tried, just trying to point out that actually getting this things done, especially globally will be really really hard, possibly as hard or harder than technological solutions, which is why I find accusations of techno-optimism a bit rich/naive. > Calling that wishful is abdicating responsibility. It is not abdicating responsibly if you think other technological solutions will be more likely to succeed just a difference of opinion. On the contrary, I think people who believe we "just need to do this or that political thing" abdicating responsibility because they have not considered how to do it or why it has not happened yet. They can just hold these "correct" opinions and blame others and absolve themselves of responsibility. I guess I just don't see how these things can be done without some sort of force. Denying people the choice to begin with is the only way to get people to make choices that will harm their standard of living on average. This would require governments being far more authoritarian than we are used to or will likely accept. Also many of the suggested policy solutions I think are far to tame even, it will take a lot more than that to avoid disaster I think. Literately going back a century or two in standard of living probably at this point.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    > Also many of the suggested policy solutions I think are far to tame even, it will take a lot more than that to avoid disaster I think. Literately going back a century or two in standard of living probably at this point. Why do you believe this to be the case? It seems like a lot of your pessimism is due to the fact that you think we would have to dramatically cut our standard of living if we don’t find technological solutions. I don’t believe this has basis.
    - seiferteric 5y ago
      I mean the article we are commenting on is literally about climate change hitting faster than expected. IPCC reports are known to be very conservative.
      - wbsss4412 5y ago

Can is a matter of a small handful of people making a decision. Calling that wishful is abdicating responsibility. The point is we aren’t powerless, we just love acting like we are.

criddell 5y ago
The small handful of people have to answer to their constituents and voters are hostile to anything that will raise taxes or lower their quality of life today. That might change if things get bad enough, but by then it's probably too late for anything but a technological miracle. Non-democratic countries (like China and Russia) have a better chance of making the changes because there it truly is the case that a small number of people can bring about change.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  Explicitly raising taxes would be very unpopular, but there were plenty of things I listed that would get minimal pushback from the public at large. No one cares if UPS delivery trucks are electric. Very few people are policy wonks and will pay attention to changes in FHA bureaucracy. Voters have very limited bandwidth and attention. Most of what the federal government does, it does on its own initiative, with opposition from select special interests.
moritzwarhier 5y ago
I love how well you made that argument, although I am as disillusioned as your other respondent. Another problem is that countries are also in a global economic competition. The legislative frameworks still do not keep the costs of destroying the planet from being so low that doing so is an economic imperative.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  There are challenges with every policy option and you bring up an important one. However, that is not a universal obstacle to all policy solutions. Getting people to electrify their homes has minimal impact on global economic competition. Changing urban planning regimes has little (direct) impact on global economic competition. I’m not trying to imply it is easy. But it is still a choice that we can make is we can coordinate ourselves. I think the biggest challenge is simply the degree to which hyper individualism has taken over American culture and its effect on our collective psyche.
seiferteric 5y ago
I am really not trying to discourage anyone, and agree policy solutions should be tried, just trying to point out that actually getting this things done, especially globally will be really really hard, possibly as hard or harder than technological solutions, which is why I find accusations of techno-optimism a bit rich/naive. > Calling that wishful is abdicating responsibility. It is not abdicating responsibly if you think other technological solutions will be more likely to succeed just a difference of opinion. On the contrary, I think people who believe we "just need to do this or that political thing" abdicating responsibility because they have not considered how to do it or why it has not happened yet. They can just hold these "correct" opinions and blame others and absolve themselves of responsibility. I guess I just don't see how these things can be done without some sort of force. Denying people the choice to begin with is the only way to get people to make choices that will harm their standard of living on average. This would require governments being far more authoritarian than we are used to or will likely accept. Also many of the suggested policy solutions I think are far to tame even, it will take a lot more than that to avoid disaster I think. Literately going back a century or two in standard of living probably at this point.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  > Also many of the suggested policy solutions I think are far to tame even, it will take a lot more than that to avoid disaster I think. Literately going back a century or two in standard of living probably at this point. Why do you believe this to be the case? It seems like a lot of your pessimism is due to the fact that you think we would have to dramatically cut our standard of living if we don’t find technological solutions. I don’t believe this has basis.
  - seiferteric 5y ago
    I mean the article we are commenting on is literally about climate change hitting faster than expected. IPCC reports are known to be very conservative.
    - wbsss4412 5y ago