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And to me its a sign of not understanding and/or not valuing what an extra decade and a half of experience brings to the table. Paying that cofounder more based

And to me its a sign of not understanding and/or not valuing what an extra decade and a half of experience brings to the table. Paying that cofounder more based on their stage in life is a requisite to acquiring that experience. They're both bearing the same risk, it's just quantified differently for two people in two different life situations.

newaccount74 5y ago
I guess it depends very strongly whether the startup needs that experience or not. And to be honest, the kind of experience that someone who worked 15 years as a developer brings to the table is probably not going to be the kind of experience that makes or breaks a startup. Experienced devs can bring much more value at later stage companies, where they can focus on the thing they are good at, rather than at an early stage startup where the founders have a million different responsibilities.
- SmellTheGlove 5y ago
  > I guess it depends very strongly whether the startup needs that experience or not. Well, this is in response to a post that said they had an offer, so my presumption here is that the startup needed that experience or they wouldn't have offered the role. > And to be honest, the kind of experience that someone who worked 15 years as a developer The original post didn't specify whether they were a developer, only that they were 15 years older than the other co-founder. I'm making my own assumption about that translating into 15 more years experience (not accounting for breaks, back to school, whatever).
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Having a developer with experience or one without is the kind of thing that can break a startup. If you try to get a single junior developer to ship the product... well, good luck with that. I can count on one hands the people in my circle who could do that fresh out of university. You definitely need at least a mid developer who shipped something else - of you can just outsource the tech side. When my startup was incubated there were plenty of biz founder with a junior who couldn't ship something simple (even a wordpress with some plugins would have worked!) or ended up outsourcing their development (which ended up being a way to make some income when my startup didn't go anywhere).
- gedy 5y ago
  > And to be honest, the kind of experience that someone who worked 15 years as a developer brings to the table is probably not going to be the kind of experience that makes or breaks a startup. Hard disagree here, as many many junior devs treat startup/greenfield work as their personal playground for trying esoteric tech, prematurely building their own platform, etc.
- andrew_ 5y ago
  I would argue that your take doesn't apply to T-shaped engineers, or engineers that have been in the industry through a multitude of technology shifts and trends.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Paying that cofounder more based on their stage in life is a requisite to acquiring that experience. The primary compensation for a founder position is the equity stake. A co-founder would get substantial equity (20% or more). For perspective, consider that future investors will be pouring millions of dollars into the company in exchange for a similarly sized equity stake. You need to remember that as a co-founder, they're deciding what to pay themselves. The higher the base compensation, the less runway they have and the fewer employees they can hire. If someone is demanding a $450K/year base compensation as a co-founder, they're not looking at this as a true co-founder role. A co-founder would want to focus on equity and take something like $150K/year so the company could hire 1-2 additional engineers with the other $300K/year. If this sounds weird or unfair, then you're probably not a good fit for a co-founder role. And that's fine! For most people, taking the $450K-$600K big tech is the better choice. Not everyone is cut out for the risk-taking of a co-founder role.
- SmellTheGlove 5y ago
  > If someone is demanding a $450K/year base compensation as a co-founder, they're not looking at this as a true co-founder role. A co-founder would want to focus on equity and take something like $150K/year so the company could hire 1-2 additional engineers with the other $300K/year. I think we're both making some assumptions around what GP was offered, but I would agree with you that asking for $450k as a cofounder is unreasonable. But I'd say that for someone closer to middle age with a family, $200k isn't unreasonable. The idea is that you want the cofounder to focus on the company, so you remove the financial distraction. > Not everyone is cut out for the risk-taking of a co-founder role. Sure, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm saying that you should not expect your co-founder and their kids to live on ramen. If you want the experience they offer, you gotta pay their bills. It's not about extravagance, it's just the cost of mitigating the same risk that the 20-something cofounder faces and mitigates with their own salary. It just costs more to do it with someone who is a little further along in life.
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    > I think we're both making some assumptions around what GP was offered, but I would agree with you that asking for $450k as a cofounder is unreasonable. But I'd say that for someone closer to middle age with a family, $200k isn't unreasonable. The idea is that you want the cofounder to focus on the company, so you remove the financial distraction. That's basically what I said in my other comment above, right down to the same $200K number: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30517360 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30517360 The parent commenter responded that they don't like startups at all due to the high failure rate. Between that and the unwillingness to give up immediate compensation, I think it's likely that they just don't really want to be a startup co-founder. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not really cool to blame a startup for having expectations in line with standard startup practices (assuming they weren't offering $50K or something silly)

newaccount74 5y ago

I guess it depends very strongly whether the startup needs that experience or not. And to be honest, the kind of experience that someone who worked 15 years as a developer brings to the table is probably not going to be the kind of experience that makes or breaks a startup. Experienced devs can bring much more value at later stage companies, where they can focus on the thing they are good at, rather than at an early stage startup where the founders have a million different responsibilities.

SmellTheGlove 5y ago
> I guess it depends very strongly whether the startup needs that experience or not. Well, this is in response to a post that said they had an offer, so my presumption here is that the startup needed that experience or they wouldn't have offered the role. > And to be honest, the kind of experience that someone who worked 15 years as a developer The original post didn't specify whether they were a developer, only that they were 15 years older than the other co-founder. I'm making my own assumption about that translating into 15 more years experience (not accounting for breaks, back to school, whatever).
jokethrowaway 5y ago
Having a developer with experience or one without is the kind of thing that can break a startup. If you try to get a single junior developer to ship the product... well, good luck with that. I can count on one hands the people in my circle who could do that fresh out of university. You definitely need at least a mid developer who shipped something else - of you can just outsource the tech side. When my startup was incubated there were plenty of biz founder with a junior who couldn't ship something simple (even a wordpress with some plugins would have worked!) or ended up outsourcing their development (which ended up being a way to make some income when my startup didn't go anywhere).
gedy 5y ago
> And to be honest, the kind of experience that someone who worked 15 years as a developer brings to the table is probably not going to be the kind of experience that makes or breaks a startup. Hard disagree here, as many many junior devs treat startup/greenfield work as their personal playground for trying esoteric tech, prematurely building their own platform, etc.
andrew_ 5y ago
I would argue that your take doesn't apply to T-shaped engineers, or engineers that have been in the industry through a multitude of technology shifts and trends.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Paying that cofounder more based on their stage in life is a requisite to acquiring that experience. The primary compensation for a founder position is the equity stake. A co-founder would get substantial equity (20% or more). For perspective, consider that future investors will be pouring millions of dollars into the company in exchange for a similarly sized equity stake. You need to remember that as a co-founder, they're deciding what to pay themselves. The higher the base compensation, the less runway they have and the fewer employees they can hire. If someone is demanding a $450K/year base compensation as a co-founder, they're not looking at this as a true co-founder role. A co-founder would want to focus on equity and take something like $150K/year so the company could hire 1-2 additional engineers with the other $300K/year. If this sounds weird or unfair, then you're probably not a good fit for a co-founder role. And that's fine! For most people, taking the $450K-$600K big tech is the better choice. Not everyone is cut out for the risk-taking of a co-founder role.

SmellTheGlove 5y ago
> If someone is demanding a $450K/year base compensation as a co-founder, they're not looking at this as a true co-founder role. A co-founder would want to focus on equity and take something like $150K/year so the company could hire 1-2 additional engineers with the other $300K/year. I think we're both making some assumptions around what GP was offered, but I would agree with you that asking for $450k as a cofounder is unreasonable. But I'd say that for someone closer to middle age with a family, $200k isn't unreasonable. The idea is that you want the cofounder to focus on the company, so you remove the financial distraction. > Not everyone is cut out for the risk-taking of a co-founder role. Sure, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm saying that you should not expect your co-founder and their kids to live on ramen. If you want the experience they offer, you gotta pay their bills. It's not about extravagance, it's just the cost of mitigating the same risk that the 20-something cofounder faces and mitigates with their own salary. It just costs more to do it with someone who is a little further along in life.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > I think we're both making some assumptions around what GP was offered, but I would agree with you that asking for $450k as a cofounder is unreasonable. But I'd say that for someone closer to middle age with a family, $200k isn't unreasonable. The idea is that you want the cofounder to focus on the company, so you remove the financial distraction. That's basically what I said in my other comment above, right down to the same $200K number: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30517360 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30517360 The parent commenter responded that they don't like startups at all due to the high failure rate. Between that and the unwillingness to give up immediate compensation, I think it's likely that they just don't really want to be a startup co-founder. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not really cool to blame a startup for having expectations in line with standard startup practices (assuming they weren't offering $50K or something silly)