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I've come to believe the opposite. Expecting the whole world to give stuff up is more of a "magic" solution than developing new technology it seems.

wbsss4412 5y ago
Unrealistic and magic aren’t synonymous. In one case you are betting on something that is at best hopefully possible, while in the second case, it is quite clearly possible, it’s just not likely to happen.
- seiferteric 5y ago
  I was thinking more along the lines of "magical thinking"
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    Perhaps it is magical thinking. At the same time, physical reality doesn’t seem to care much about our opinions, thoughts and feelings about any of this subject. We can continue to live our lives with the hope of technology coming to our rescue, we can go on living the way we do without considering making changes, and the natural world around us will continue down the path that it’s on, utterly unconcerned with our desires.
bdamm 5y ago
Not only that, but even the idea itself has become weaponized. Corporations seem to be pushing the agenda that if consumers could <X> then our problems will be solved, where X is {recycle, reuse, reduce, sort the trash, eat less meat, use less plastic, be smarter, be more efficient, breed more selectively, vote, drive less, bike more, take transit, read food labels, get educated, etc.} And this is completely to distract from the reality that only large scale policy is going to have meaningful effect on our climate outcomes. Product and technology leaders like Tesla can help catalyze change, but without meaningful market policy and adjustment in which there will definitely be losers and winners it is all for naught. And the losers are fighting with every weapon at their disposal to prevent being displaced from the status quo, including brainwashing people into believing that if they sort their plastic waste then something will magically happen to help the world. Individual actions do matter, but not very much, and not usually in the way that people think it does. Individual actions only matter because they affect the future of what policy gets emphasized in governmental decisions.
- Sharlin 5y ago
  > Corporations seem to be pushing the agenda that if consumers could <X> then our problems will be solved, where X is {recycle, reuse, reduce, [...]) Not just that, ever since the 90s they have actively (and quite successfully) tried to get everybody to forget or ignore the "reuse" and "reduce" (and "repair"!) parts which, of course, would cut into their profits if people actually started consuming less. Reusability and repairability have both gone way down instead during the past 30 years or so.
mberning 5y ago
How many of these people “deeply concerned” with climate change are living it in their lifestyle? Very few in my experience. They don’t invest in solar panels for their home, geothermal HVAC, severely curtail their lifetime travel habits, etc. they might buy a prius or a tesla, but a dubiously “green” car is right in line with their actual commitment to the environment.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
I agree. Telling the world to consume less while the population continues to grow doesnt work. Especially when the majority of pollution comes from corporations who have a financial incentive to continuing operating the same way.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  That wasn’t the dichotomy. It’s technical solutions vs social political ones. Not collective vs individual.
throwaway5752 5y ago
If people don't give things up, the tragedy comes to pass. It's not the fault of engineers and scientists to not cover for the general public's unsustainable lifestyle that they've become accustomed to. If you are trapped in an area with limited oxygen, you should reduce your breathing and activity to a minimum to buy time for rescue. You should not complain about it impacting your lifestyle, blame lack of progress on the rescuers, and go along with life as normal.

wbsss4412 5y ago

Unrealistic and magic aren’t synonymous. In one case you are betting on something that is at best hopefully possible, while in the second case, it is quite clearly possible, it’s just not likely to happen.

seiferteric 5y ago
I was thinking more along the lines of "magical thinking"
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  Perhaps it is magical thinking. At the same time, physical reality doesn’t seem to care much about our opinions, thoughts and feelings about any of this subject. We can continue to live our lives with the hope of technology coming to our rescue, we can go on living the way we do without considering making changes, and the natural world around us will continue down the path that it’s on, utterly unconcerned with our desires.

bdamm 5y ago

Not only that, but even the idea itself has become weaponized. Corporations seem to be pushing the agenda that if consumers could <X> then our problems will be solved, where X is {recycle, reuse, reduce, sort the trash, eat less meat, use less plastic, be smarter, be more efficient, breed more selectively, vote, drive less, bike more, take transit, read food labels, get educated, etc.} And this is completely to distract from the reality that only large scale policy is going to have meaningful effect on our climate outcomes. Product and technology leaders like Tesla can help catalyze change, but without meaningful market policy and adjustment in which there will definitely be losers and winners it is all for naught. And the losers are fighting with every weapon at their disposal to prevent being displaced from the status quo, including brainwashing people into believing that if they sort their plastic waste then something will magically happen to help the world. Individual actions do matter, but not very much, and not usually in the way that people think it does. Individual actions only matter because they affect the future of what policy gets emphasized in governmental decisions.

Sharlin 5y ago
> Corporations seem to be pushing the agenda that if consumers could <X> then our problems will be solved, where X is {recycle, reuse, reduce, [...]) Not just that, ever since the 90s they have actively (and quite successfully) tried to get everybody to forget or ignore the "reuse" and "reduce" (and "repair"!) parts which, of course, would cut into their profits if people actually started consuming less. Reusability and repairability have both gone way down instead during the past 30 years or so.

mberning 5y ago

How many of these people “deeply concerned” with climate change are living it in their lifestyle? Very few in my experience. They don’t invest in solar panels for their home, geothermal HVAC, severely curtail their lifetime travel habits, etc. they might buy a prius or a tesla, but a dubiously “green” car is right in line with their actual commitment to the environment.

AlwaysRock 5y ago

I agree. Telling the world to consume less while the population continues to grow doesnt work. Especially when the majority of pollution comes from corporations who have a financial incentive to continuing operating the same way.

wbsss4412 5y ago
That wasn’t the dichotomy. It’s technical solutions vs social political ones. Not collective vs individual.

throwaway5752 5y ago

If people don't give things up, the tragedy comes to pass. It's not the fault of engineers and scientists to not cover for the general public's unsustainable lifestyle that they've become accustomed to. If you are trapped in an area with limited oxygen, you should reduce your breathing and activity to a minimum to buy time for rescue. You should not complain about it impacting your lifestyle, blame lack of progress on the rescuers, and go along with life as normal.