5 ms·

The feedback so far is pretty negative, but I think folks that poo poo these virtual office environments fail to channel the PG heuristic of "what is this the [

The feedback so far is pretty negative, but I think folks that poo poo these virtual office environments fail to channel the PG heuristic of "what is this the [ancient tech version of something that is now ubiquitous] of?" when thinking about these spaces. As a substitute for the collaboration tools we now have, these are unquestionably terrible. But for those of you that can, I'd highly recommend checking out PokerStars VR before then diving into your opinion of virtual work environments. If you've ever played poker with friends, you'll quickly realize that there are many parts of IRL poker that... truly suck. Play is slower than what you would like, and, if you play "correctly", the ratio of hands you are playing to time you are waiting for shuffling,dealing,etc. is quite obnoxious. There are pain points, even though overall it is super fun to play poker with friends. Pokerstars, to my mind, did a masterful job in faithfully recreating poker in the virtual world, but then augmenting it by taking advantage of the VR tech. There's still a table, there's still a deck, the rules are the same, etc. But, because of the medium, the game goes... MUCH faster. Therefore, you get to play more hands, which is more fun. Also, yes, you might still wait around for hands, but now you get all sorts of virtual sidegames or dumb tchotchkis you can play with on your table, which is fun. Your environment can be any one of really incredible settings that help set the mood for a poker night, which is probably nicer than your mom's basement. Etc, etc, etc. My point is, poker is a pretty mundane game from an IRL perspective, yet I fundamentally believe that had I the option to invite 5 friends over to play poker in my house versus getting the same 5 friends to meet me in the VR room, that we'd have far more fun in the VR room. This before the fact that the friction of getting together physically is now erased, so chances are we might even get to play more often. This works, however, because it isn't a perfect analogy to the real world poker; rather, because its virtual, there are enough different things that help make it better to an extent that it beats its real world counterpart (at least for me). All of this stuff is pretty nascent and I agree that there's lots of crap there, but there will be something unquestionably brilliant about inhabiting virtual spaces with folks where you can bend some laws of physics to make mundane things (like meetings) work a little bit better than they do IRL.

Miraste 5y ago
This is a good point. I don't agree that PokerStars VR is better than real life and won't be until the tech can replicate details like facial expressions, but the concept of eliminating unnecessary pain points is sound. It reminds me of the gradual removal of the old skeumorphic designs in iOS. However, Mozilla Hubs isn't doing any of that. I can't find a single advantage it has over any other collaboration software, frankly.
traverseda 5y ago
Tabltop simulator is great! The environment is intuitive enough that even my tech-illiterate family don't mind using it (one cousin actually suggested everyone bring their laptops to an in-person game night), and it works well on a traditional PC. More VR like tabletop simulator please!
- disease 5y ago
  I'm honestly surprised that VR hasn't been a bigger impact on board games. Besides the obvious fact that you can more easily get people together, software is great at handling the non-gameplay related "administration" that takes time away from the fun. Things that come to mind: shuffling decks, misdeals, misunderstood rule-sets (I'm looking at you D&D 3.5). I guess the downside is also pretty big: no face-to-face communication - which itself can be a detriment to gameplay in games like Poker or PvPvE games like Dead of Winter. Also the tactile-ness of board games is such a nice escape from everything being digitized these days.
  - brimble 5y ago
    It's limited by how many people have VR rigs in the first place, and by the other things people might do instead if they've already decided they're going to play a multiplayer game on a computer or console, that aren't virtual board games. I'd rather hop into Minecraft or whatever with some friends, if that's what I'm doing, than card or board game simulator. I'd guess that's a common sentiment. Further, I'd rather play some very plain poker game (like the old Windows card games) with voice chat on than try to do some VR thing. Most of the benefits, and doesn't monopolize your attention. But that part may just be me.
  - sleepybrett 5y ago
    VR headsets are stuffy and uncomfortable, no-one wants to wear them for more than about an hour. Tabletop simulator in particular is problematic because of it's physics engine and the chaos that that always causes.
- akavel 5y ago
  That's interesting, because personally I seem to dislike Tabletop Simulator; I feel super slow and constrained by it, as if I was having my hands tied, and much prefer playing the same games live with friends (or solo!) and manipulating real physical objects. Additionally, I much prefer the fact that real board games give me one more reason to unglue myself from a computer screen. I'm really curious why mine and yours reception seem so different! Though I didn't have an opportunity to play it in VR using VR goggles - is this the aspect that is important here? Does your whole family play it with VR goggles?
ghempton 5y ago
> All of this stuff is pretty nascent and I agree that there's lots of crap there, but there will be something unquestionably brilliant about inhabiting virtual spaces with folks where you can bend some laws of physics to make mundane things (like meetings) work a little bit better than they do IRL. I totally agree with this sentiment and I don't think you even need VR/AR etc, to achieve it. This is a big reason why I helped build spotvirtual.com. As a kid, some of my most meaningful relationships and experiences were forged through online gaming (ever played UO?). A big part of this wasn’t necessarily the gameplay, but just the shared experience of being part of a virtual space that had its own rules. There is definitely room to apply this same experience to a work setting, where mundane things can be transformed into something more meaningful and effective.
sleepybrett 5y ago
1) I worked on this kind of stuff in the late 90s early 2000s, aside graphics fidelity and finally getting decent vr headsets and trackers this looks about the same in terms of features. 2) I lived through the transition to desktop os windowed environments, there was a lot of talk at the time about how we'd never use a commandline again, but things have boomeranged for many, many people still use the cli. I don't see this replacing video chat or even text chat. 3) I talked with a small company locally right after the htc vive came out, they were building tech like this (virtual meeting spaces) and I went to check it out, it was actually also the first time I had used the valve vr technology. The man interviewing me was in another room also on a vive rig. It is quite cool how eye contact works in a vr space. But at the end of the interview I left knowing that even if I got an offer I wouldn't take it but that also this technology was not going to break out in any meaningful way for a very long time. I'd been through this before and other simpler technologies just worked better.
dehrmann 5y ago
> there are many parts of IRL poker that... truly suck. Play is slower than what you would like, and, if you play "correctly", the ratio of hands you are playing to time you are waiting for shuffling,dealing,etc. is quite obnoxious. The point of poker with friends isn't to grind out hands with an optimal strategy as quickly as possible.
- josephg 5y ago
  It depends on the friends group. I played Dominion with friends online a few times during the pandemic. And I adore how much faster it is. With all the counting, dealing, shuffling, VP calculations and so on taken care of, the game plays about twice as fast. And that really does enhance the experience for me and my friend group. It improves game feel. And game feel is so important.
ignoramous 5y ago
> PG heuristic of "what is this the [ancient tech version of something that is now ubiquitous] of?" For those out of loop: http://paulgraham.com/altair.html http://paulgraham.com/altair.html | https://archive.is/5HNc5 https://archive.is/5HNc5
- ChicagoBoy11 5y ago
  omg thank you for this. I literally forgot what the actual item he had used was -- it bothered me for the rest of the day!!!
me_me_mu_mu 5y ago
Imo nothing beats IRL. Metaverse is okay but considering people are depressed and isolated being on social media today I don’t see how adding even more layers between reality is going to help. I wish technology would make IRL better, instead of delegating all problems online.

Miraste 5y ago

This is a good point. I don't agree that PokerStars VR is better than real life and won't be until the tech can replicate details like facial expressions, but the concept of eliminating unnecessary pain points is sound. It reminds me of the gradual removal of the old skeumorphic designs in iOS. However, Mozilla Hubs isn't doing any of that. I can't find a single advantage it has over any other collaboration software, frankly.

traverseda 5y ago

Tabltop simulator is great! The environment is intuitive enough that even my tech-illiterate family don't mind using it (one cousin actually suggested everyone bring their laptops to an in-person game night), and it works well on a traditional PC. More VR like tabletop simulator please!

disease 5y ago
I'm honestly surprised that VR hasn't been a bigger impact on board games. Besides the obvious fact that you can more easily get people together, software is great at handling the non-gameplay related "administration" that takes time away from the fun. Things that come to mind: shuffling decks, misdeals, misunderstood rule-sets (I'm looking at you D&D 3.5). I guess the downside is also pretty big: no face-to-face communication - which itself can be a detriment to gameplay in games like Poker or PvPvE games like Dead of Winter. Also the tactile-ness of board games is such a nice escape from everything being digitized these days.
- brimble 5y ago
  It's limited by how many people have VR rigs in the first place, and by the other things people might do instead if they've already decided they're going to play a multiplayer game on a computer or console, that aren't virtual board games. I'd rather hop into Minecraft or whatever with some friends, if that's what I'm doing, than card or board game simulator. I'd guess that's a common sentiment. Further, I'd rather play some very plain poker game (like the old Windows card games) with voice chat on than try to do some VR thing. Most of the benefits, and doesn't monopolize your attention. But that part may just be me.
- sleepybrett 5y ago
  VR headsets are stuffy and uncomfortable, no-one wants to wear them for more than about an hour. Tabletop simulator in particular is problematic because of it's physics engine and the chaos that that always causes.
akavel 5y ago
That's interesting, because personally I seem to dislike Tabletop Simulator; I feel super slow and constrained by it, as if I was having my hands tied, and much prefer playing the same games live with friends (or solo!) and manipulating real physical objects. Additionally, I much prefer the fact that real board games give me one more reason to unglue myself from a computer screen. I'm really curious why mine and yours reception seem so different! Though I didn't have an opportunity to play it in VR using VR goggles - is this the aspect that is important here? Does your whole family play it with VR goggles?

ghempton 5y ago

> All of this stuff is pretty nascent and I agree that there's lots of crap there, but there will be something unquestionably brilliant about inhabiting virtual spaces with folks where you can bend some laws of physics to make mundane things (like meetings) work a little bit better than they do IRL. I totally agree with this sentiment and I don't think you even need VR/AR etc, to achieve it. This is a big reason why I helped build spotvirtual.com. As a kid, some of my most meaningful relationships and experiences were forged through online gaming (ever played UO?). A big part of this wasn’t necessarily the gameplay, but just the shared experience of being part of a virtual space that had its own rules. There is definitely room to apply this same experience to a work setting, where mundane things can be transformed into something more meaningful and effective.

sleepybrett 5y ago

1) I worked on this kind of stuff in the late 90s early 2000s, aside graphics fidelity and finally getting decent vr headsets and trackers this looks about the same in terms of features. 2) I lived through the transition to desktop os windowed environments, there was a lot of talk at the time about how we'd never use a commandline again, but things have boomeranged for many, many people still use the cli. I don't see this replacing video chat or even text chat. 3) I talked with a small company locally right after the htc vive came out, they were building tech like this (virtual meeting spaces) and I went to check it out, it was actually also the first time I had used the valve vr technology. The man interviewing me was in another room also on a vive rig. It is quite cool how eye contact works in a vr space. But at the end of the interview I left knowing that even if I got an offer I wouldn't take it but that also this technology was not going to break out in any meaningful way for a very long time. I'd been through this before and other simpler technologies just worked better.

dehrmann 5y ago

> there are many parts of IRL poker that... truly suck. Play is slower than what you would like, and, if you play "correctly", the ratio of hands you are playing to time you are waiting for shuffling,dealing,etc. is quite obnoxious. The point of poker with friends isn't to grind out hands with an optimal strategy as quickly as possible.

josephg 5y ago
It depends on the friends group. I played Dominion with friends online a few times during the pandemic. And I adore how much faster it is. With all the counting, dealing, shuffling, VP calculations and so on taken care of, the game plays about twice as fast. And that really does enhance the experience for me and my friend group. It improves game feel. And game feel is so important.

ignoramous 5y ago

> PG heuristic of "what is this the [ancient tech version of something that is now ubiquitous] of?" For those out of loop: http://paulgraham.com/altair.html http://paulgraham.com/altair.html | https://archive.is/5HNc5 https://archive.is/5HNc5

ChicagoBoy11 5y ago
omg thank you for this. I literally forgot what the actual item he had used was -- it bothered me for the rest of the day!!!

me_me_mu_mu 5y ago

Imo nothing beats IRL. Metaverse is okay but considering people are depressed and isolated being on social media today I don’t see how adding even more layers between reality is going to help. I wish technology would make IRL better, instead of delegating all problems online.