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I’m not one for continuing to believe that we have to coddle rogue states by buffer zones. 80 years since ww ii ended and I would have hoped the states changed

I’m not one for continuing to believe that we have to coddle rogue states by buffer zones. 80 years since ww ii ended and I would have hoped the states changed. Obviously not. If Ukraine wants to be European, let it. We thought Russia did, finally accomplishing what Peter the great started. Guess not. England spent centuries working on the balance of power and supporting small states vs. Large. It works. If Russia is into “Ukraine used to be Russia” then they support “Kaliningrad used to be German”, right? Or is it more “Poland and Finland used to be Russian”? And it’s really bad form to break signed treaties for the hell of it.

Ambolia 5y ago
"If God had built mountains in eastern Ukraine, then the great expanse of flatland that is the European Plain would not have been such inviting territory for the invaders who have attacked Russia from there repeatedly through history. As things stand, Putin, like Russian leaders before him, likely feels he has no choice but to at least try to control the flatlands to Russia’s west. So it is with landscapes around the world—their physical features imprison political leaders, constraining their choices and room for maneuver. These rules of geography are especially clear in Russia, where power is hard to defend, and where for centuries leaders have compensated by pushing outward." [1] I don't think the cause is so much pure historical reasons, but current defense worries. There was another talk explaining the russian perspective in 2015 by John J. Mearsheimer from the University of Chicago [2] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/russia-geography-ukraine-syria/413248/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/ru... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
- jleyank 5y ago
  Europe spent a generation trying to help integrate Russia into Europe. Guess it failed totally…. There is a well-practiced alternative to revert to, and I fear for the Central European states.
  - qiskit 5y ago
    > Europe spent a generation trying to help integrate Russia into Europe. That must be why russia is upset with the West. No it didn't. The west spent a generation robbing, stealing, attacking and bullying russia. Also, Russia doesn't need to integrate into europe. Russia IS europe. What the west did to russia in the 90s was objectively worse than what the nazis did to them in the 40s. I know it sounds hyperbolic and I didn't believe it either. But it's true. Go look at the population, economic, etc stats. It was such a disaster that the russian population still hasn't recovered to the early 90s level. And the expansion of NATO/EU which led to the wars in Georgia and Ukraine. The problem for russia is that they have no alternative. They can't really form a alliance with china. They are historical and geographical enemies. The same for turkey, iran, etc. And india is simply too far away to form an alliance not to mention the fact that india is still part of the british empire. It was russia trying to be nice to the west. It was russia that let NATO/EU expand into their sphere of influence. This is a fact. All the west did was treat russia like crap and take advantage of them. This is the same thing we have done to Turkey, Iran, India, China, etc. Treat them like shit and stab them in the back. But they do not seem to be able to form a coalition against the west so they'll keep getting shit on. Of course the west doesn't suffer. It places like ukraine, taiwan, myanmar, africa, middle east, etc that will suffer.
    - piva00 5y ago
      > The west spent a generation robbing, stealing, attacking and bullying russia. Exactly how did the West spent a generation with Putin in power robbing, stealing and attacking Russia? Describe exactly how.
- Seanambers 5y ago
  The video by Mearsheimer should be viewed by anyone wanting to understand whats happening. It's title is Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? and basically lays down the reasons for why the U.S have driven Nato expansion eastward. The cold war never ended in the U.S As a European I'm shocked that Euro leaders have allowed this to get so out of hand.
  - gbuk2013 5y ago
    Here's a video of a talk John Mearsheime did for some students at Cambridge just a few days before SHTF https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbj1AR_aAcE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbj1AR_aAcE including his views on the sudden escalation in recent months.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Yet the US has been luke warm on supporting Europe militarily in recent years and European defence spending has plummeted. I don’t buy this idea that it is the West’s fault at all.
baybal2 5y ago
Absolutely, we had so far 3 generations of pacifist politicians in the West who spoon fed dictators, instead strangling them. And the result is on every TV channel now. No matter what your defence posture is, how many weapons you have, how many megatons is your nuke, all your weapons are useless if you don't use them, and more so, if you don't want to use them. To the major demographic on HN, you have to change. There is no succinct, suave, hispter startup solution to a Russian paratrooper landing on your lawn. There is none. You, and HN have to get ALL political, just like the society itself. Next time somebody tries to shut your mouth for speaking about politics, I would've said the most un-gentle response to that man's face be the most befitting action.
- srvmshr 5y ago
  If I may, I will rephrase your closing statement in tl;dr as : "If you're not bothered about how the world is changing around you, it should not surprise you one day if it came with devastating effects"
- licebmi__at__ 5y ago
  It’s kinda of scary that after all the bloodshed by US and NATO, some people think they need to be even more aggresive. You know, the standard of humanity shouldn’t be “Unlike Russia or China, at least America doesn’t oppress their own”.
rastignack 5y ago
Yet before the creation of a buffer state called Belgium, France and UK were in a never ending war. Alas, geography has a power which cannot be negated by the UN, NATO or pacifism.
- jleyank 5y ago
  How was Belgium a buffer between England and France? Their long term contention was removed by the growth of imperial Germany and its odd desire to build a fleet to challenge England. Read massie’s dreadnought.
  - rastignack 5y ago
    Why did Philippe Auguste fight ?
    - jleyank 5y ago
      The king in 1223?! Who do you refer to, or when?
Beltalowda 5y ago
> I’m not one for continuing to believe that we have to coddle rogue states by buffer zones. 80 years since ww ii ended and I would have hoped the states changed. Obviously not. If Ukraine wants to be European, let it. That's all very nice, and no one likes coddling rogue states, but is it better than the alternative, if that alternative is war? That's the dilemma. This kind of "give me liberty or give me death" kind of rhetoric is easy to espouse if you're not the one doing the dying.
- jleyank 5y ago
  There’s only one way to stop an expansionist large state, and it’s not pleasant. The eu was formed to defuse such conflicts. Small states can be mostly ignored.
- BongoMcCat 5y ago
  how many countries should we let russia take before saying enough?
- kbelder 5y ago
  It's not an alternative, it's a consequence.

Ambolia 5y ago

"If God had built mountains in eastern Ukraine, then the great expanse of flatland that is the European Plain would not have been such inviting territory for the invaders who have attacked Russia from there repeatedly through history. As things stand, Putin, like Russian leaders before him, likely feels he has no choice but to at least try to control the flatlands to Russia’s west. So it is with landscapes around the world—their physical features imprison political leaders, constraining their choices and room for maneuver. These rules of geography are especially clear in Russia, where power is hard to defend, and where for centuries leaders have compensated by pushing outward." [1] I don't think the cause is so much pure historical reasons, but current defense worries. There was another talk explaining the russian perspective in 2015 by John J. Mearsheimer from the University of Chicago [2] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/russia-geography-ukraine-syria/413248/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/ru... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

jleyank 5y ago
Europe spent a generation trying to help integrate Russia into Europe. Guess it failed totally…. There is a well-practiced alternative to revert to, and I fear for the Central European states.
- qiskit 5y ago
  > Europe spent a generation trying to help integrate Russia into Europe. That must be why russia is upset with the West. No it didn't. The west spent a generation robbing, stealing, attacking and bullying russia. Also, Russia doesn't need to integrate into europe. Russia IS europe. What the west did to russia in the 90s was objectively worse than what the nazis did to them in the 40s. I know it sounds hyperbolic and I didn't believe it either. But it's true. Go look at the population, economic, etc stats. It was such a disaster that the russian population still hasn't recovered to the early 90s level. And the expansion of NATO/EU which led to the wars in Georgia and Ukraine. The problem for russia is that they have no alternative. They can't really form a alliance with china. They are historical and geographical enemies. The same for turkey, iran, etc. And india is simply too far away to form an alliance not to mention the fact that india is still part of the british empire. It was russia trying to be nice to the west. It was russia that let NATO/EU expand into their sphere of influence. This is a fact. All the west did was treat russia like crap and take advantage of them. This is the same thing we have done to Turkey, Iran, India, China, etc. Treat them like shit and stab them in the back. But they do not seem to be able to form a coalition against the west so they'll keep getting shit on. Of course the west doesn't suffer. It places like ukraine, taiwan, myanmar, africa, middle east, etc that will suffer.
  - piva00 5y ago
    > The west spent a generation robbing, stealing, attacking and bullying russia. Exactly how did the West spent a generation with Putin in power robbing, stealing and attacking Russia? Describe exactly how.
Seanambers 5y ago
The video by Mearsheimer should be viewed by anyone wanting to understand whats happening. It's title is Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? and basically lays down the reasons for why the U.S have driven Nato expansion eastward. The cold war never ended in the U.S As a European I'm shocked that Euro leaders have allowed this to get so out of hand.
- gbuk2013 5y ago
  Here's a video of a talk John Mearsheime did for some students at Cambridge just a few days before SHTF https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbj1AR_aAcE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbj1AR_aAcE including his views on the sudden escalation in recent months.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  Yet the US has been luke warm on supporting Europe militarily in recent years and European defence spending has plummeted. I don’t buy this idea that it is the West’s fault at all.

baybal2 5y ago

Absolutely, we had so far 3 generations of pacifist politicians in the West who spoon fed dictators, instead strangling them. And the result is on every TV channel now. No matter what your defence posture is, how many weapons you have, how many megatons is your nuke, all your weapons are useless if you don't use them, and more so, if you don't want to use them. To the major demographic on HN, you have to change. There is no succinct, suave, hispter startup solution to a Russian paratrooper landing on your lawn. There is none. You, and HN have to get ALL political, just like the society itself. Next time somebody tries to shut your mouth for speaking about politics, I would've said the most un-gentle response to that man's face be the most befitting action.

srvmshr 5y ago
If I may, I will rephrase your closing statement in tl;dr as : "If you're not bothered about how the world is changing around you, it should not surprise you one day if it came with devastating effects"
licebmi__at__ 5y ago
It’s kinda of scary that after all the bloodshed by US and NATO, some people think they need to be even more aggresive. You know, the standard of humanity shouldn’t be “Unlike Russia or China, at least America doesn’t oppress their own”.

rastignack 5y ago

Yet before the creation of a buffer state called Belgium, France and UK were in a never ending war. Alas, geography has a power which cannot be negated by the UN, NATO or pacifism.

jleyank 5y ago
How was Belgium a buffer between England and France? Their long term contention was removed by the growth of imperial Germany and its odd desire to build a fleet to challenge England. Read massie’s dreadnought.
- rastignack 5y ago
  Why did Philippe Auguste fight ?
  - jleyank 5y ago
    The king in 1223?! Who do you refer to, or when?

Beltalowda 5y ago

> I’m not one for continuing to believe that we have to coddle rogue states by buffer zones. 80 years since ww ii ended and I would have hoped the states changed. Obviously not. If Ukraine wants to be European, let it. That's all very nice, and no one likes coddling rogue states, but is it better than the alternative, if that alternative is war? That's the dilemma. This kind of "give me liberty or give me death" kind of rhetoric is easy to espouse if you're not the one doing the dying.

jleyank 5y ago
There’s only one way to stop an expansionist large state, and it’s not pleasant. The eu was formed to defuse such conflicts. Small states can be mostly ignored.
BongoMcCat 5y ago
how many countries should we let russia take before saying enough?
kbelder 5y ago
It's not an alternative, it's a consequence.