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Hi, I’m Matthew Thomas. I set up the open-web-advocacy.org and am the primary author of the document. We don’t want this to be about personalities and want to

Hi, I’m Matthew Thomas. I set up the open-web-advocacy.org and am the primary author of the document. We don’t want this to be about personalities and want to focus on the problems at hand. Happy to answer questions and I hope some of you will join us in advocating a better future for the web.

dmitriid 5y ago
> Happy to answer questions and I hope some of you will join us in advocating a better future for the web If you actually advocate for open web, where's Chrome on your website? Chrome routinely releases its own internal APIs disguised as specs, calls them standards, ignores any and all concerns from both Safari and Firefox, and then proceeds to gaslight those two browser for not kowtowing themselves before Google's whims.
- mtomweb 5y ago
  We're happy to target anti-competitive behaviour from any operating system or browser if it relates to the open-web. Currently our main focus is user's browser choice on all operating systems is possible and respected to restore the competitive pressures that push everything forward. That said we want to make list of other things to target and fix, but they have to be well understood and documented. If you're willing to type this up in detail... which APIs, what the issues are, comments from the various browser teams involved and why they came to that conclusion (and it's really important to talk to the individuals that were actually involved in whatever spec you were talking about) and then post in the discord, I'm sure folks would be interested. It's also really important to be specific as to why the behaviour is harmful to end consumers. We also need to order the issues in terms of priority and how damaging they are to the wider ecosystem. Some issues with Google include equal WebAPK minting system on Android, and respecting a user's browser choice via Android or Google apps. Finally, this is all volunteer work on people's weekends and producing detailed technical arguments about each of these topics is incredibly time-consuming. Should be lots of updates to the website over the next few weeks, lots of people have volunteered, the web community is amazing.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > We're happy to target anti-competitive behaviour from any operating system or browser if it relates to the open-web. Currently our main focus is user's browser choice It means you're not really focusing on the open web. You have a very specific, very narrow beef that you're pursuing. And it's parroting Chrome's propaganda basically word-for-word both on the website and here in the comments. > they have to be well understood and documented. If you're willing to type this up in detail... In Discord, right? You could start by actually looking around and figuring out these things yourself, too. Not just repeating Google's talking points. Good starting point: https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_th... Or maybe look at the status of the APIs you so ardently defend. Example, WebHID timeline: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#issuecomment-886271967 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is... etc. > It's also really important to be specific as to why the behaviour is harmful to end consumers. We also need to order the issues in terms of priority and how damaging they are to the wider ecosystem. You've already stated your priorities loud and clear > and respecting a user's browser choice via Android or Google apps. Yup, it's s good one. Since Google doesn't respect that and ignores all/most input on the non-standards it's pushing out at neck-breaking speed, you can see where it's going if you "allow browser choice on iOS"
    - mtomweb 5y ago
      If you want document this and contribute to the group, please do. Our group is volunteer only and so we can only focus on issues that are contributed. We have a GitHub for more formal conversations and discord for chat. We will tackle the major issues relating to browsers and web-apps that the vendors aren’t addressing. Wanting Web Apps to work is not a narrow focus.

dmitriid 5y ago

> Happy to answer questions and I hope some of you will join us in advocating a better future for the web If you actually advocate for open web, where's Chrome on your website? Chrome routinely releases its own internal APIs disguised as specs, calls them standards, ignores any and all concerns from both Safari and Firefox, and then proceeds to gaslight those two browser for not kowtowing themselves before Google's whims.

mtomweb 5y ago
We're happy to target anti-competitive behaviour from any operating system or browser if it relates to the open-web. Currently our main focus is user's browser choice on all operating systems is possible and respected to restore the competitive pressures that push everything forward. That said we want to make list of other things to target and fix, but they have to be well understood and documented. If you're willing to type this up in detail... which APIs, what the issues are, comments from the various browser teams involved and why they came to that conclusion (and it's really important to talk to the individuals that were actually involved in whatever spec you were talking about) and then post in the discord, I'm sure folks would be interested. It's also really important to be specific as to why the behaviour is harmful to end consumers. We also need to order the issues in terms of priority and how damaging they are to the wider ecosystem. Some issues with Google include equal WebAPK minting system on Android, and respecting a user's browser choice via Android or Google apps. Finally, this is all volunteer work on people's weekends and producing detailed technical arguments about each of these topics is incredibly time-consuming. Should be lots of updates to the website over the next few weeks, lots of people have volunteered, the web community is amazing.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > We're happy to target anti-competitive behaviour from any operating system or browser if it relates to the open-web. Currently our main focus is user's browser choice It means you're not really focusing on the open web. You have a very specific, very narrow beef that you're pursuing. And it's parroting Chrome's propaganda basically word-for-word both on the website and here in the comments. > they have to be well understood and documented. If you're willing to type this up in detail... In Discord, right? You could start by actually looking around and figuring out these things yourself, too. Not just repeating Google's talking points. Good starting point: https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_th... Or maybe look at the status of the APIs you so ardently defend. Example, WebHID timeline: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#issuecomment-886271967 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is... etc. > It's also really important to be specific as to why the behaviour is harmful to end consumers. We also need to order the issues in terms of priority and how damaging they are to the wider ecosystem. You've already stated your priorities loud and clear > and respecting a user's browser choice via Android or Google apps. Yup, it's s good one. Since Google doesn't respect that and ignores all/most input on the non-standards it's pushing out at neck-breaking speed, you can see where it's going if you "allow browser choice on iOS"
  - mtomweb 5y ago
    If you want document this and contribute to the group, please do. Our group is volunteer only and so we can only focus on issues that are contributed. We have a GitHub for more formal conversations and discord for chat. We will tackle the major issues relating to browsers and web-apps that the vendors aren’t addressing. Wanting Web Apps to work is not a narrow focus.