3 ms·

> They're forced into a conflict they don't want to be in, and are suffering the consequences. Ukrainians are also forced into a conflict they don't want. Unfo

> They're forced into a conflict they don't want to be in, and are suffering the consequences. Ukrainians are also forced into a conflict they don't want. Unfortunately, it's up to both the Ukrainians and Russians to do something about it, not Ukrainians alone. The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs.

throwaway3968 5y ago
> Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. There's nothing we can realistically do. It's up to the military to start a civil war.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  The Euromaidan also started with normal civilians. It seems they just didn't accept no for an answer. Later they indeed threatened to involve the reserve army since they were on their side. But the army was not required. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
- CRConrad 5y ago
  >> Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. > There's nothing we can realistically do. Then you get to collectively carry the responsibility for that "inability"; for, by not rising up as one against the dictatorship, passively allowing it to continue. That's what was seen as appropriate for the nation you fought in your Great Patriotic War, so why shouldn't it be appropriate for yours?
- rurp 5y ago
  Many awful dictators have been toppled by civilian revolts. Waiting for the military to get involved is not at all required. When enough citizens revolt there will be a point where police forces realize that they are on the wrong side, either for moral or self preservation reasons. Once they start refusing to defend the dictator, that dictator's power is done.
bigboiseal 5y ago
> The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. Russia is a non-democratic country...
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Ukraine was also a non-democratic country, until the people decided otherwise. And yes, it was pretty brutal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
  - leereeves 5y ago
    > Ukraine was also a non-democratic country, until the people decided otherwise That's not true. The President of Ukraine who was overthrown in 2014 (Yanukovych) was democratically elected in 2010 in an election that international observers called fair, truly competitive, and an impressive display of democracy.[1] That President was supported mostly by the people of eastern Ukraine and opposed by the people of western Ukraine. 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-president-election https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukov...
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      True that he was democratically elected. But it's hard to call a government democratic when they shoot and kill protesters.
      - mbg721 5y ago
        Walling themselves off from (edit: potential) protesters at taxpayer expense is still good, though?
      - leereeves 5y ago
        I'd say instead that it shows that being democratic doesn't preclude being corrupt and authoritarian.

throwaway3968 5y ago

> Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. There's nothing we can realistically do. It's up to the military to start a civil war.

koonsolo 5y ago
The Euromaidan also started with normal civilians. It seems they just didn't accept no for an answer. Later they indeed threatened to involve the reserve army since they were on their side. But the army was not required. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
CRConrad 5y ago
>> Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. > There's nothing we can realistically do. Then you get to collectively carry the responsibility for that "inability"; for, by not rising up as one against the dictatorship, passively allowing it to continue. That's what was seen as appropriate for the nation you fought in your Great Patriotic War, so why shouldn't it be appropriate for yours?
rurp 5y ago
Many awful dictators have been toppled by civilian revolts. Waiting for the military to get involved is not at all required. When enough citizens revolt there will be a point where police forces realize that they are on the wrong side, either for moral or self preservation reasons. Once they start refusing to defend the dictator, that dictator's power is done.

bigboiseal 5y ago

> The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. Russia is a non-democratic country...

koonsolo 5y ago
Ukraine was also a non-democratic country, until the people decided otherwise. And yes, it was pretty brutal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
- leereeves 5y ago
  > Ukraine was also a non-democratic country, until the people decided otherwise That's not true. The President of Ukraine who was overthrown in 2014 (Yanukovych) was democratically elected in 2010 in an election that international observers called fair, truly competitive, and an impressive display of democracy.[1] That President was supported mostly by the people of eastern Ukraine and opposed by the people of western Ukraine. 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-president-election https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukov...
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    True that he was democratically elected. But it's hard to call a government democratic when they shoot and kill protesters.
    - mbg721 5y ago
      Walling themselves off from (edit: potential) protesters at taxpayer expense is still good, though?
    - leereeves 5y ago
      I'd say instead that it shows that being democratic doesn't preclude being corrupt and authoritarian.