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This is dishonesty. There is no “protection” story. There is no credible threat and Russia has nukes. You cant accept every argument someone makes. Because the

This is dishonesty. There is no “protection” story. There is no credible threat and Russia has nukes. You cant accept every argument someone makes. Because they’ll realize it in short order and then make stupid arguments to manipulate you. “Russia needs to protect itself from Ukraine” is a dishonest, stupid argument.

pydry 5y ago
Russia doesnt need to protect itself from Ukraine. It does need to protect itself from NATO. NATO does want to threaten it. NATO does want Ukraine to join and Ukraine wants to join it. NATO's ability to threaten Russia from Ukraine's border would jump considerably.
- rmind 5y ago
  You are delusional. NATO doesn't want anybody to join. It's all eastern Europeans who actively lobbied and had to sweat convincing NATO leaders to accept them. It was voluntary choice of those nations. Why did they choose to join? Because Russia has been threatening and interfering with their way of life, with the desire to be free. Russian invasion of Ukraine just reinforced the desire to be in NATO.
  - pydry 5y ago
    >You are delusional. NATO doesn't want anybody to join. They stated very clearly at the Bucharest conference in 2008 and again in Brussels in 2021 that Ukraine will join. I'm frankly appalled at the number of times I have had people tell me that Ukraine "would never have joined NATO". It was well on its way to membership. Im also terrified at the number of people willing to be dragged down on a path to nuclear war by NATO trying to secure a strategic advantage on Russia's border. Why is NATO fucking with a nuclear power?? Russia isnt Libya. Russia can destroy us.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      >>You are delusional. NATO doesn't want anybody to join. > They stated very clearly at the Bucharest conference in 2008 and again in Brussels in 2021 that Ukraine will join. Are you truly so stupid that you don't understand what you're replying to, or do you just think everyone else here is, so they'll buy your pro-Putin talking points? The point was that if Ukraine joins NATO, that's not because of NATO actively trying to expand eastwards but because Ukraine themselves have been begging to be admitted. You know, almost as if they were an independent nation that decides for itself which alliances it will (try to) join, not someone else's "border", satellite, puppet, or general plaything... Oh well, I take back the "you know" bit, because this concept of sovereignty for any country near Russia seems as impossible to grasp for you as it is for Putin. > ...dragged down on a path to nuclear war by NATO... Keep trying to shift the blame. Only Putler's Russia is dragging the world down that path. Seems to have already succeeded in dragging you down the garden path.
- hugojaba 5y ago
  When you say Russia, do you mean Putin's authoritarian regime? I'm failing to see the threat of NATO to Russia otherwise. NATO only ever goes against dictators and acts of ethnic or religious cleansing and such things as territorial conquest, etc. But even given Putin, his regime having access to Nuclear Weapons, I still doubt NATO is a threat. Look at North Korea, even though US has military bases in South Korea, no one is touching North Korea. So in my opinion, it's pretty clear to me the whole NATO thing is false pretense and justification hiding an ulterior motive, very similar to the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Let me know if there's something I don't know otherwise.
  - pydry 5y ago
    >NATO only ever goes against dictators and acts of ethnic or religious cleansing NATO invaded Libya after promising to leave it alone after stopping their nuclear weapons program. NATO supports Saudi Arabia's war of aggression against Yemen. I shouldnt have to remind you that Saudi Arabia is run by a brutal dictator. NATO was set up with the singular purpose to oppose Russia. It's has always threatened Russia. It will always threaten Russia. Putin is staking everything on this war in a desperate attempt to push back that threat with one hand on the nuclear button, making it abundantly clear that all we have to do is back off.
    - tromp 5y ago
      NATO was setup foremost as a defensive pact, with Article 5 being key. > NATO was set up with the singular purpose to oppose Russia. Only to the extent of defending against Russian aggression. > It's has always threatened Russia. How can it, when it provides a path for Russia to join them? A path which Russia never seriously pursued. Russia demanding Ukraine to never join amounts to demanding that Ukraine must remain relatively defenseless against Russian attack.
    - mcphage 5y ago
      > making it abundantly clear that all we have to do is back off We're not the ones doing the invading.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mcphage 5y ago
  > Russia doesnt need to protect itself from Ukraine. And what does Ukraine need? Ukraine needs to protect itself from Russia.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Russia ... does need to protect itself from NATO. Can't you stop echoing Putler's lies, please? Thank you.

pydry 5y ago

Russia doesnt need to protect itself from Ukraine. It does need to protect itself from NATO. NATO does want to threaten it. NATO does want Ukraine to join and Ukraine wants to join it. NATO's ability to threaten Russia from Ukraine's border would jump considerably.

rmind 5y ago
You are delusional. NATO doesn't want anybody to join. It's all eastern Europeans who actively lobbied and had to sweat convincing NATO leaders to accept them. It was voluntary choice of those nations. Why did they choose to join? Because Russia has been threatening and interfering with their way of life, with the desire to be free. Russian invasion of Ukraine just reinforced the desire to be in NATO.
- pydry 5y ago
  >You are delusional. NATO doesn't want anybody to join. They stated very clearly at the Bucharest conference in 2008 and again in Brussels in 2021 that Ukraine will join. I'm frankly appalled at the number of times I have had people tell me that Ukraine "would never have joined NATO". It was well on its way to membership. Im also terrified at the number of people willing to be dragged down on a path to nuclear war by NATO trying to secure a strategic advantage on Russia's border. Why is NATO fucking with a nuclear power?? Russia isnt Libya. Russia can destroy us.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    >>You are delusional. NATO doesn't want anybody to join. > They stated very clearly at the Bucharest conference in 2008 and again in Brussels in 2021 that Ukraine will join. Are you truly so stupid that you don't understand what you're replying to, or do you just think everyone else here is, so they'll buy your pro-Putin talking points? The point was that if Ukraine joins NATO, that's not because of NATO actively trying to expand eastwards but because Ukraine themselves have been begging to be admitted. You know, almost as if they were an independent nation that decides for itself which alliances it will (try to) join, not someone else's "border", satellite, puppet, or general plaything... Oh well, I take back the "you know" bit, because this concept of sovereignty for any country near Russia seems as impossible to grasp for you as it is for Putin. > ...dragged down on a path to nuclear war by NATO... Keep trying to shift the blame. Only Putler's Russia is dragging the world down that path. Seems to have already succeeded in dragging you down the garden path.
hugojaba 5y ago
When you say Russia, do you mean Putin's authoritarian regime? I'm failing to see the threat of NATO to Russia otherwise. NATO only ever goes against dictators and acts of ethnic or religious cleansing and such things as territorial conquest, etc. But even given Putin, his regime having access to Nuclear Weapons, I still doubt NATO is a threat. Look at North Korea, even though US has military bases in South Korea, no one is touching North Korea. So in my opinion, it's pretty clear to me the whole NATO thing is false pretense and justification hiding an ulterior motive, very similar to the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Let me know if there's something I don't know otherwise.
- pydry 5y ago
  >NATO only ever goes against dictators and acts of ethnic or religious cleansing NATO invaded Libya after promising to leave it alone after stopping their nuclear weapons program. NATO supports Saudi Arabia's war of aggression against Yemen. I shouldnt have to remind you that Saudi Arabia is run by a brutal dictator. NATO was set up with the singular purpose to oppose Russia. It's has always threatened Russia. It will always threaten Russia. Putin is staking everything on this war in a desperate attempt to push back that threat with one hand on the nuclear button, making it abundantly clear that all we have to do is back off.
  - tromp 5y ago
    NATO was setup foremost as a defensive pact, with Article 5 being key. > NATO was set up with the singular purpose to oppose Russia. Only to the extent of defending against Russian aggression. > It's has always threatened Russia. How can it, when it provides a path for Russia to join them? A path which Russia never seriously pursued. Russia demanding Ukraine to never join amounts to demanding that Ukraine must remain relatively defenseless against Russian attack.
  - mcphage 5y ago
    > making it abundantly clear that all we have to do is back off We're not the ones doing the invading.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mcphage 5y ago
> Russia doesnt need to protect itself from Ukraine. And what does Ukraine need? Ukraine needs to protect itself from Russia.
CRConrad 5y ago
Russia ... does need to protect itself from NATO. Can't you stop echoing Putler's lies, please? Thank you.