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Either you believe in democracy, or you do not. If the Ukrainian people want to join the EU or NATO, and our people want them to join us as well, they have the

by simonh 5y ago

Either you believe in democracy, or you do not. If the Ukrainian people want to join the EU or NATO, and our people want them to join us as well, they have the right to make that choice as free sovereign people, and we should back them up. Any other response is itself subjugation, and capitulation to terror.

pydry 5y ago
I do believe in democracy. It doesnt change anything about what I just said.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- simonh 5y ago
  Rolling over and giving in to threats sometimes means those threats aren't carried out. Sometimes. Other times it simply emboldens and encourages the ones making the threats to threaten even more. The fact that Putin is using Ukraine's possibly joining NATO as an excuse to invade does not mean he would not have invaded anyway. It's entirely likely he would have seen that as a further sign of weakness and simply found another excuse. So no, I don't agree that what you said is true and I don't understand how you can be so sure of it.
  - pydry 5y ago
    It's possible but I dont think it's at all likely given the immense cost of invasion and the sheer impossibility of occupying. Putin is not unaware that Russia will come out of this bloody and bruised and nearly broken (potentially completely) and he's not irrational either.
    - simonh 5y ago
      He may be aware of that now, but I don't think he was at all aware of it a week ago. I think he was expecting an easy takeover just like Crimea.
      - pydry 5y ago
        That's absurd.
        simonh 5y ago
        We have two examples of Russian tanks rolling into an east European territory and taking it over almost bloodlessly. Czechoslovakia in 1968 and Crimea in 2014. I don't think it's at all absurd to think he was trying for a third.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > I do believe in democracy. No, you quite obviously don't.
tut-urut-utut 5y ago
- roca 5y ago
  If Russia had joined NATO then there would be nothing to stop Putin taking the Baltic states right now.
  - throw202203 5y ago
    - roca 5y ago
      That is pure speculation. Even if you're right, Eastern European countries would be stupid to put their trust in Russian dictators staying benevolent. They were smart and joined NATO.
- HstryrsrBttn 5y ago
- hugojaba 5y ago
  Russia and NATO together doesn't make sense to me. Who would they defend against? What common threats do they have? NATO is made to promote democratic values, Putin runs a dictatorship, how does that work? In a world where Russia also sought to promote free democracies and started with itself, then Russia being in NATO would make sense.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Russia and NATO together doesn't make sense to me. Who would they defend against? Central Asian Islamic extremists? > NATO is made to promote democratic values, Putin runs a dictatorship, how does that work? Russia wasn't clearly a dictatorship when it was admitted to the Partnership for Peace, or when Putin wanted direct admission to NATO without the usual accession process, though, yeah, it is now. Someone who was unreasonably optimistic might think NATO membership would have mellowed Putin rather than just letting him jam up the alliances consensus-based processes.

by simonh 5y ago

pydry 5y ago

I do believe in democracy. It doesnt change anything about what I just said.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
simonh 5y ago
Rolling over and giving in to threats sometimes means those threats aren't carried out. Sometimes. Other times it simply emboldens and encourages the ones making the threats to threaten even more. The fact that Putin is using Ukraine's possibly joining NATO as an excuse to invade does not mean he would not have invaded anyway. It's entirely likely he would have seen that as a further sign of weakness and simply found another excuse. So no, I don't agree that what you said is true and I don't understand how you can be so sure of it.
- pydry 5y ago
  It's possible but I dont think it's at all likely given the immense cost of invasion and the sheer impossibility of occupying. Putin is not unaware that Russia will come out of this bloody and bruised and nearly broken (potentially completely) and he's not irrational either.
  - simonh 5y ago
    He may be aware of that now, but I don't think he was at all aware of it a week ago. I think he was expecting an easy takeover just like Crimea.
    - pydry 5y ago
      That's absurd.
      - simonh 5y ago
        We have two examples of Russian tanks rolling into an east European territory and taking it over almost bloodlessly. Czechoslovakia in 1968 and Crimea in 2014. I don't think it's at all absurd to think he was trying for a third.
CRConrad 5y ago
> I do believe in democracy. No, you quite obviously don't.

tut-urut-utut 5y ago

roca 5y ago
If Russia had joined NATO then there would be nothing to stop Putin taking the Baltic states right now.
- throw202203 5y ago
  - roca 5y ago
    That is pure speculation. Even if you're right, Eastern European countries would be stupid to put their trust in Russian dictators staying benevolent. They were smart and joined NATO.
HstryrsrBttn 5y ago
hugojaba 5y ago
Russia and NATO together doesn't make sense to me. Who would they defend against? What common threats do they have? NATO is made to promote democratic values, Putin runs a dictatorship, how does that work? In a world where Russia also sought to promote free democracies and started with itself, then Russia being in NATO would make sense.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Russia and NATO together doesn't make sense to me. Who would they defend against? Central Asian Islamic extremists? > NATO is made to promote democratic values, Putin runs a dictatorship, how does that work? Russia wasn't clearly a dictatorship when it was admitted to the Partnership for Peace, or when Putin wanted direct admission to NATO without the usual accession process, though, yeah, it is now. Someone who was unreasonably optimistic might think NATO membership would have mellowed Putin rather than just letting him jam up the alliances consensus-based processes.