5 ms·

Chechnya war also was very close and nobody cared since they were mostly Islamic, and the war in the former Yugoslavia happened just in the middle of Europe, bu

Chechnya war also was very close and nobody cared since they were mostly Islamic, and the war in the former Yugoslavia happened just in the middle of Europe, but apparently many have already lost memory of it despite the atrocities committed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

wnkrshm 5y ago
I've been reading up on the history of the Bosnian genocide, I should probably also read up on Czechnya. I really hope that Ukraine won't go down like Czechnya but I fear in the end, Putin only knows one trick.
- CalRobert 5y ago
  At least he didn't blow up apartment buildings in Russia and blame it on Ukraine.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    He didn't need to actually blow anything up anymore. Since then he's consolidated control over the media. He's already able to push whatever propagandized story he needs.
belorn 5y ago
Media and news looked a bit difference in 1992, and it was mostly seen as an civil war of the former Yugoslavia rather than an invasion force of one country entering an other country in order to capture land. It seemed to have more similarities with the situation in Northern Ireland than with Lebensraum. Lebensraum really scares people. Religious conflict are concerning, but the French wasn't directly worried that the UK might go after them next once the Northern Ireland situation got settled.
- buran77 5y ago
  It's not just the media reporting in itself as much as how concerned people are about the suffering that happens during that war. Sure people watched Iraq's invasion of Kuwait on TV but most of the Western world was free to watch it with detachment and just a tiniest bit of worry. There has been constant fighting in the Middle East for decades but it's just too far away for people in the West to process that concern, or to blame the countries committing those atrocities (whether Russia or the US). It's "countries far away we don't like anyway", "people who aren't like us anyway". Now it's close to home, happening to people like us. Now it's a genuine concern and those who are close enough in Europe are forced to process those worries, go through them, make scenarios, visualize the loss because it may be their loss soon. When Russia was bombing the hell out of Syria very few people felt the visceral hate or fear they feel now. And I bet far fewer people remember that this is even more recent than the Crimean invasion and that they've kept bombing Syria well into 2021. When Russia was invading Georgia we just watched the news and shook our heads. Same when Russia and Turkey were fighting their proxy wars in the Caucasus, Western and Central Asia. All too far from us to care. It was all about thoughts and prayers until the bombs hit close to home.
odiroot 5y ago
> Chechnya war also was very close and nobody cared since they were mostly Islamic Maybe USA didn't care. I remember, as a child, my Polish parents being glued to the TV, watching the situation unfold in Chechnya. As far as I know, my country accepted quite a few Chechen refugees. Dhokhar Dudayev was recognised as a hero in Poland. We named a landmark after him.
dukoid 5y ago
Many people also did not care about Georgia. So while cultural proximity is certainly a factor, geographical proximity seems to be a significant factor, too. I don't think Sreberenica is forgotten or was ignored in Europe. The West seems to be slow to wake up -- and Putin got high on his sequence of "successful" wars. I don't want to deny that hypocrisy exists here, but it doesn't justify Putins crimes anywhere.
- eftychis 5y ago
  Georgia and Ukraine are tightly connected in this through the same precursor events. The "West" is simply deaf. Multiple analysts had brought these concerns since before Crimea. (Disclaimer I am from the West -- trying to be objective here and focusing on the non-NATO side.) The diplomatic relationships since Russia Federation's birth have been problematic and idiosyncratic. Russian people wanted recognition of their value. West decided to not follow similar approach with other past enemies countries -- and this was due to the cold war. Somehow Russia's "Monroe" doctrine is surprising now to us, despite all the warnings by political science and diplomats since 2014. (at least/off the top of my head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=2893s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=2893s) And our own similar reactions and actions. It is known that Putin made multiple attempts to establish partnerships and ensure Russia was part of the West. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s... I would say all sides need to take a breather and attempt an honest discussion among equals -- if it's not too late.
  - hugojaba 5y ago
    What values would those be? I'm really not following you?
  - armada651 5y ago
    I've watched the Pozner video before, but I would be highly skeptical. Vladimir Pozner is a former KGB propagandist according to his own admission. Thus he has quite a good understanding about effective propaganda: "Intelligent propaganda is not a propaganda that tells blatant lies. It's something where you try to show the good side of what your [sic] supporting and you don't tell about the negatives, you only tell about the positive." [1] For example, while Pozner insists that Russia did nothing wrong during the 90s, he's conveniently forgetting to mention the Chechen Wars. Which wasn't a conflict the west was a party in, but it wouldn't exactly be fair to say Russia was a peace-loving nation during that time. Also while he says there's plenty of proof of Putin trying to join NATO or the EU, I can only find proof of half-hearted attempts to join NATO, it doesn't seem he was very serious about any of it. Back in 2009 the Russian delegation to NATO, while open to the suggestion of joining NATO, also said "Great powers don't join coalitions, they create coalitions. Russia considers itself a great power." [2] Those aren't the kind of things you say when you're actively trying to join NATO. In any case, I agree that the west should've done more to ensure democracy in the early Russian Federation was a success. And while the Wolfowitz Doctrine was widely condemned and was heavily changed it definitely cemented belief in Russia that the west was only interested in isolating it. [1] https://www.pbs.org/redfiles/prop/deep/interv/p_int_vladimir_pozner.htm https://www.pbs.org/redfiles/prop/deep/interv/p_int_vladimir... [2] https://euobserver.com/news/27890 https://euobserver.com/news/27890
euroderf 5y ago
Also Chechnya got little attention because early on, the separatists kidnaped journalists and held them for ransom. Gee, why was there so little subsequent coverage ?
rob74 5y ago
The difference is that Russia invading Ukraine is a clear-cut war between two independent states. Chechnya was/is a part of Russia, so the situation is the same as in China with Xinjiang and Tibet. And Yugoslavia was a complicated and bloody break-up of a federal republic (followed by the even more complicated and bloody break-up of Bosnia and the breaking away of Kosovo from Serbia). But the Russia-Ukraine war brings back memories of Hitler invading Poland, where the Germans also claimed to be acting in "self-defense" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland#German_invasion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland#German_inva...).
- screenbreakout 5y ago
  I beg to differ, all people have a right to self determination...ideally on a local (village) level. I'd actually like people to question the meaning on countries and what they project with the never ending question of "where are you from" I come from a mixed background and look forward to where I'm going (which is much more interesting ) Countries imo are a colonialistic power grab by political elites who want to fill their pockets and freeload on the questionable idea of cultural identity (Slovakia...etc) not that it doesn't exist but it's often a bit racist or very local... Anyway afaik Tibet was invaded...
ssijak 5y ago
Many atrocities on all sides. You already mentioned the biggest one committed by Bosnian Serb army. Mujahideens volunteering in Bosnia and creating a muslim army and committing numerous crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_mujahideen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_mujahideen Croatian army ethnically cleansing croatian territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm Kosovo Albanian Liberation Army which was designated as terrorist organization by the US, but that conveniently changed before NATO bombing of Yugoslavia committing their share of crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army Than there is also NATO bombing destroying numerous civilian targets and killing civilians on all sides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Operation_Allied_Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Ope... etc etc. So many atrocities, where one is too many. I long for the day where each side will punish all their vile murderers and crime doers and not as it is often done, protect them, excuse them, or even celebrate them after the wars. Or even better, when ordinary people would not fall for the propaganda of their countries and stop wars from even happening.

wnkrshm 5y ago

I've been reading up on the history of the Bosnian genocide, I should probably also read up on Czechnya. I really hope that Ukraine won't go down like Czechnya but I fear in the end, Putin only knows one trick.

CalRobert 5y ago
At least he didn't blow up apartment buildings in Russia and blame it on Ukraine.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  He didn't need to actually blow anything up anymore. Since then he's consolidated control over the media. He's already able to push whatever propagandized story he needs.

belorn 5y ago

Media and news looked a bit difference in 1992, and it was mostly seen as an civil war of the former Yugoslavia rather than an invasion force of one country entering an other country in order to capture land. It seemed to have more similarities with the situation in Northern Ireland than with Lebensraum. Lebensraum really scares people. Religious conflict are concerning, but the French wasn't directly worried that the UK might go after them next once the Northern Ireland situation got settled.

buran77 5y ago
It's not just the media reporting in itself as much as how concerned people are about the suffering that happens during that war. Sure people watched Iraq's invasion of Kuwait on TV but most of the Western world was free to watch it with detachment and just a tiniest bit of worry. There has been constant fighting in the Middle East for decades but it's just too far away for people in the West to process that concern, or to blame the countries committing those atrocities (whether Russia or the US). It's "countries far away we don't like anyway", "people who aren't like us anyway". Now it's close to home, happening to people like us. Now it's a genuine concern and those who are close enough in Europe are forced to process those worries, go through them, make scenarios, visualize the loss because it may be their loss soon. When Russia was bombing the hell out of Syria very few people felt the visceral hate or fear they feel now. And I bet far fewer people remember that this is even more recent than the Crimean invasion and that they've kept bombing Syria well into 2021. When Russia was invading Georgia we just watched the news and shook our heads. Same when Russia and Turkey were fighting their proxy wars in the Caucasus, Western and Central Asia. All too far from us to care. It was all about thoughts and prayers until the bombs hit close to home.

odiroot 5y ago

> Chechnya war also was very close and nobody cared since they were mostly Islamic Maybe USA didn't care. I remember, as a child, my Polish parents being glued to the TV, watching the situation unfold in Chechnya. As far as I know, my country accepted quite a few Chechen refugees. Dhokhar Dudayev was recognised as a hero in Poland. We named a landmark after him.

dukoid 5y ago

Many people also did not care about Georgia. So while cultural proximity is certainly a factor, geographical proximity seems to be a significant factor, too. I don't think Sreberenica is forgotten or was ignored in Europe. The West seems to be slow to wake up -- and Putin got high on his sequence of "successful" wars. I don't want to deny that hypocrisy exists here, but it doesn't justify Putins crimes anywhere.

eftychis 5y ago
Georgia and Ukraine are tightly connected in this through the same precursor events. The "West" is simply deaf. Multiple analysts had brought these concerns since before Crimea. (Disclaimer I am from the West -- trying to be objective here and focusing on the non-NATO side.) The diplomatic relationships since Russia Federation's birth have been problematic and idiosyncratic. Russian people wanted recognition of their value. West decided to not follow similar approach with other past enemies countries -- and this was due to the cold war. Somehow Russia's "Monroe" doctrine is surprising now to us, despite all the warnings by political science and diplomats since 2014. (at least/off the top of my head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=2893s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=2893s) And our own similar reactions and actions. It is known that Putin made multiple attempts to establish partnerships and ensure Russia was part of the West. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s... I would say all sides need to take a breather and attempt an honest discussion among equals -- if it's not too late.
- hugojaba 5y ago
  What values would those be? I'm really not following you?
- armada651 5y ago
  I've watched the Pozner video before, but I would be highly skeptical. Vladimir Pozner is a former KGB propagandist according to his own admission. Thus he has quite a good understanding about effective propaganda: "Intelligent propaganda is not a propaganda that tells blatant lies. It's something where you try to show the good side of what your [sic] supporting and you don't tell about the negatives, you only tell about the positive." [1] For example, while Pozner insists that Russia did nothing wrong during the 90s, he's conveniently forgetting to mention the Chechen Wars. Which wasn't a conflict the west was a party in, but it wouldn't exactly be fair to say Russia was a peace-loving nation during that time. Also while he says there's plenty of proof of Putin trying to join NATO or the EU, I can only find proof of half-hearted attempts to join NATO, it doesn't seem he was very serious about any of it. Back in 2009 the Russian delegation to NATO, while open to the suggestion of joining NATO, also said "Great powers don't join coalitions, they create coalitions. Russia considers itself a great power." [2] Those aren't the kind of things you say when you're actively trying to join NATO. In any case, I agree that the west should've done more to ensure democracy in the early Russian Federation was a success. And while the Wolfowitz Doctrine was widely condemned and was heavily changed it definitely cemented belief in Russia that the west was only interested in isolating it. [1] https://www.pbs.org/redfiles/prop/deep/interv/p_int_vladimir_pozner.htm https://www.pbs.org/redfiles/prop/deep/interv/p_int_vladimir... [2] https://euobserver.com/news/27890 https://euobserver.com/news/27890

euroderf 5y ago

Also Chechnya got little attention because early on, the separatists kidnaped journalists and held them for ransom. Gee, why was there so little subsequent coverage ?

rob74 5y ago

The difference is that Russia invading Ukraine is a clear-cut war between two independent states. Chechnya was/is a part of Russia, so the situation is the same as in China with Xinjiang and Tibet. And Yugoslavia was a complicated and bloody break-up of a federal republic (followed by the even more complicated and bloody break-up of Bosnia and the breaking away of Kosovo from Serbia). But the Russia-Ukraine war brings back memories of Hitler invading Poland, where the Germans also claimed to be acting in "self-defense" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland#German_invasion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland#German_inva...).

screenbreakout 5y ago
I beg to differ, all people have a right to self determination...ideally on a local (village) level. I'd actually like people to question the meaning on countries and what they project with the never ending question of "where are you from" I come from a mixed background and look forward to where I'm going (which is much more interesting ) Countries imo are a colonialistic power grab by political elites who want to fill their pockets and freeload on the questionable idea of cultural identity (Slovakia...etc) not that it doesn't exist but it's often a bit racist or very local... Anyway afaik Tibet was invaded...

ssijak 5y ago

Many atrocities on all sides. You already mentioned the biggest one committed by Bosnian Serb army. Mujahideens volunteering in Bosnia and creating a muslim army and committing numerous crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_mujahideen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_mujahideen Croatian army ethnically cleansing croatian territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm Kosovo Albanian Liberation Army which was designated as terrorist organization by the US, but that conveniently changed before NATO bombing of Yugoslavia committing their share of crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army Than there is also NATO bombing destroying numerous civilian targets and killing civilians on all sides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Operation_Allied_Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Ope... etc etc. So many atrocities, where one is too many. I long for the day where each side will punish all their vile murderers and crime doers and not as it is often done, protect them, excuse them, or even celebrate them after the wars. Or even better, when ordinary people would not fall for the propaganda of their countries and stop wars from even happening.