5 ms·

They aren't holding Russia accountable, they holding Russians accountable and that seems like a terrible thing.

by nathias 5y ago

spc476 5y ago
So how does one hold Russia accountable?
- CRConrad 5y ago
  By holding Russians accountable for continuing to allow Russia to be a dictatorship.
ihateolives 5y ago
They're not holding Russians accountable, they're hoping that Russians will hold their own government accountable for once. Just, like, for once.
- aa-jv 5y ago
  This is also the point of terrorist attacks: that the people will be so outraged when they learn about the terrorists' motives for the attack that they will rise up and "do something" about their government. Americans can't be this shallow. This is ridiculous. THINK about what you are suggesting with these sanctions regimes. Sanctions are a crime against humanity, too.
  - dash2 5y ago
    Sanctions are not a crime against humanity. Nobody is forced to accept your currency, or to trade with you. Nobody is forced to provide dollar currency to the murderous, lying regime which has invaded Ukraine. Many Russians are supporting this evil war, out of cowardice or ignorance. They should share some of the pain. That may help them to wake up.
    - aa-jv 5y ago
      When sanctions result in a population starving, or children dying because they don't get medical care because of sanctions, they are crimes against humanity. >They should share some of the pain. Such utter totalitarian-authoritarian nonsense. Did 9/11 stop the US from bombing innocent people in the Middle East?
      - dash2 5y ago
        Russia isn’t starving and children aren’t deprived of medical care. As for 9/11, that is a pure red herring.
        aa-jv 5y ago
        No, but Yemen children are. So .. Why are we supporting the KSA by shipping it weapons and refuelling their planes, then? Because we learned that genocide by sanctions is an effective weapon, as per Iraq, Libya, etc. Alongside the children of Yemen, we are directing this same policy at the children of Russia.
        ssijak 5y ago
        Maybe they are not currently but they could. Look at Cuba, US sanctions prevent even common medicine and food from being imported. I was on the receiving end of sanction (better say my parents, I was young living with them) in Yugoslavia. Sanctions just produced extreme poverty, hyperinflation and give more reason to bad actors/dictators to appoint even more extreme measures and justifications for them. Guys who are in power can even more easily hold to the power and use force against the populous. Destroying free media and maxing propaganda and sadly average person falls for propaganda if it is fed to him daily. IDK of one good example where sanctions toppled a dictator, Cuba, Yugoslavia, North Korea, Iran, Russia, etc... Not saying nothing should be done, but this wide spread canceling of everything Russian will hurt ordinary people who will be in even less power to do something now.
        dash2 5y ago
        Sanctions helped end apartheid. Your experience is valid and interesting. Still, unless you’ve got a better alternative, and until sanctions do actually cause those potential harms, I think they are the best weapons we have.
netfortius 5y ago
Lack of large reaction to Putin's behavior goes through the stomach and smartphone apps of Russians. Remember 1989 and what the stage of famine and cold and lack of basics had to be, for Romanians to finally take the streets and bring Ceaușescu down. Hard! If the Russians can still sit comfortably at home, playing with Amazon, FB and Google, while their Ukrainian brothers are killed, that is no incentive for uprising. So - sorry - but action in this area seems to require a little incentive.
dimator 5y ago
This is the point of soft power. Enough pain, and people revolt against the dipshits that earned them the pain.
- nathias 5y ago
  but if you cause pain to people, aren't you the dipshit?
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Not if that people have accepted and are condoning a dictator that is causing even more pain (including to that people themselves); then they are the ultimate dipshits.
    - nathias 5y ago
      what about everyone else?
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        What about them (us)? It's not the rest of the world that keeps putting dictators in power in Russia, is it? It's the Russians.
        nathias 5y ago
        there isn't a single country throught history where the population would be unified in their political opinion, you aren't responsible for actions of your neighbours and there are no justification for using people as tools to hurt economies and states
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > there are no justification for using people as tools to hurt economies and states Yes of course there is: That's the only way to do it. What else do you think economies and states are, if not people?
Yoric 5y ago
I haven't paid attention to what Google, Amazon, etc. are doing, nor do I particularly care. NATO, EU, Switzerland and a few others are not trying to hold Russians accountable. They are trying to hit the Russian economy strong and hard to demonstrate that Putin's Russia cannot afford a war against the West. That's after Putin and his representatives articulated several times and in no uncertain terms the threat of a nuclear attack against the West. Are people going to suffer for it? Absolutely. That's the definition of a war, even if it the West has chosen to use money to wage it, rather than deploying soldiers. Is it worth it? Time will tell, I suppose. All I can tell you is that in the past week, I have spent time role-playing/strategizing the entire situation with friends (that's how I evacuate stress, YMMV) and, based on the information I have at hand, I would have done the same if I was playing the West.
- nathias 5y ago
  Would you support banning all US accounts to hold Biden accountable for attacks in Yemen?
  - Yoric 5y ago
    Are you asking me? Pretty sure I didn't advocate for holding anybody accountable. edit Clarified.
    - nathias 5y ago
      I misunderstood, ethics aside why would you think this is a good strategy? From the cases I remember sanctions are making thing worse, are there any examples of sanctions working out as 'intended'?
      - Yoric 5y ago
        Examples of an economic blockade hurting economically a military power? I would need to double-check, but I'd be surprised if it didn't hurt Napoleon's army, as well as Hitler's and Mussolini's, for instance. I remember that one of the reasons for which the Allies won WWII is that towards the end of the war, the Wehrmacht had considerable difficulties finding fuel for their panzers and logistics and had insufficient ammo for extended fights. Hurts bystanders, too, of course.

They aren't holding Russia accountable, they holding Russians accountable and that seems like a terrible thing.

spc476 5y ago

So how does one hold Russia accountable?

CRConrad 5y ago
By holding Russians accountable for continuing to allow Russia to be a dictatorship.

ihateolives 5y ago

They're not holding Russians accountable, they're hoping that Russians will hold their own government accountable for once. Just, like, for once.

aa-jv 5y ago
This is also the point of terrorist attacks: that the people will be so outraged when they learn about the terrorists' motives for the attack that they will rise up and "do something" about their government. Americans can't be this shallow. This is ridiculous. THINK about what you are suggesting with these sanctions regimes. Sanctions are a crime against humanity, too.
- dash2 5y ago
  Sanctions are not a crime against humanity. Nobody is forced to accept your currency, or to trade with you. Nobody is forced to provide dollar currency to the murderous, lying regime which has invaded Ukraine. Many Russians are supporting this evil war, out of cowardice or ignorance. They should share some of the pain. That may help them to wake up.
  - aa-jv 5y ago
    When sanctions result in a population starving, or children dying because they don't get medical care because of sanctions, they are crimes against humanity. >They should share some of the pain. Such utter totalitarian-authoritarian nonsense. Did 9/11 stop the US from bombing innocent people in the Middle East?
    - dash2 5y ago
      Russia isn’t starving and children aren’t deprived of medical care. As for 9/11, that is a pure red herring.
      - aa-jv 5y ago
        No, but Yemen children are. So .. Why are we supporting the KSA by shipping it weapons and refuelling their planes, then? Because we learned that genocide by sanctions is an effective weapon, as per Iraq, Libya, etc. Alongside the children of Yemen, we are directing this same policy at the children of Russia.
      - ssijak 5y ago
        Maybe they are not currently but they could. Look at Cuba, US sanctions prevent even common medicine and food from being imported. I was on the receiving end of sanction (better say my parents, I was young living with them) in Yugoslavia. Sanctions just produced extreme poverty, hyperinflation and give more reason to bad actors/dictators to appoint even more extreme measures and justifications for them. Guys who are in power can even more easily hold to the power and use force against the populous. Destroying free media and maxing propaganda and sadly average person falls for propaganda if it is fed to him daily. IDK of one good example where sanctions toppled a dictator, Cuba, Yugoslavia, North Korea, Iran, Russia, etc... Not saying nothing should be done, but this wide spread canceling of everything Russian will hurt ordinary people who will be in even less power to do something now.
        dash2 5y ago
        Sanctions helped end apartheid. Your experience is valid and interesting. Still, unless you’ve got a better alternative, and until sanctions do actually cause those potential harms, I think they are the best weapons we have.

netfortius 5y ago

Lack of large reaction to Putin's behavior goes through the stomach and smartphone apps of Russians. Remember 1989 and what the stage of famine and cold and lack of basics had to be, for Romanians to finally take the streets and bring Ceaușescu down. Hard! If the Russians can still sit comfortably at home, playing with Amazon, FB and Google, while their Ukrainian brothers are killed, that is no incentive for uprising. So - sorry - but action in this area seems to require a little incentive.

dimator 5y ago

This is the point of soft power. Enough pain, and people revolt against the dipshits that earned them the pain.

nathias 5y ago
but if you cause pain to people, aren't you the dipshit?
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Not if that people have accepted and are condoning a dictator that is causing even more pain (including to that people themselves); then they are the ultimate dipshits.
  - nathias 5y ago
    what about everyone else?
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      What about them (us)? It's not the rest of the world that keeps putting dictators in power in Russia, is it? It's the Russians.
      - nathias 5y ago
        there isn't a single country throught history where the population would be unified in their political opinion, you aren't responsible for actions of your neighbours and there are no justification for using people as tools to hurt economies and states
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > there are no justification for using people as tools to hurt economies and states Yes of course there is: That's the only way to do it. What else do you think economies and states are, if not people?

Yoric 5y ago

I haven't paid attention to what Google, Amazon, etc. are doing, nor do I particularly care. NATO, EU, Switzerland and a few others are not trying to hold Russians accountable. They are trying to hit the Russian economy strong and hard to demonstrate that Putin's Russia cannot afford a war against the West. That's after Putin and his representatives articulated several times and in no uncertain terms the threat of a nuclear attack against the West. Are people going to suffer for it? Absolutely. That's the definition of a war, even if it the West has chosen to use money to wage it, rather than deploying soldiers. Is it worth it? Time will tell, I suppose. All I can tell you is that in the past week, I have spent time role-playing/strategizing the entire situation with friends (that's how I evacuate stress, YMMV) and, based on the information I have at hand, I would have done the same if I was playing the West.

nathias 5y ago
Would you support banning all US accounts to hold Biden accountable for attacks in Yemen?
- Yoric 5y ago
  Are you asking me? Pretty sure I didn't advocate for holding anybody accountable. edit Clarified.
  - nathias 5y ago
    I misunderstood, ethics aside why would you think this is a good strategy? From the cases I remember sanctions are making thing worse, are there any examples of sanctions working out as 'intended'?
    - Yoric 5y ago
      Examples of an economic blockade hurting economically a military power? I would need to double-check, but I'd be surprised if it didn't hurt Napoleon's army, as well as Hitler's and Mussolini's, for instance. I remember that one of the reasons for which the Allies won WWII is that towards the end of the war, the Wehrmacht had considerable difficulties finding fuel for their panzers and logistics and had insufficient ammo for extended fights. Hurts bystanders, too, of course.