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Iraq war while justified by wrong evidence, it was a necessity. Saddam did use WMDs on Kurdish villages - he bombed them with Sarin gas - that is HAVING WMDs.

Iraq war while justified by wrong evidence, it was a necessity. Saddam did use WMDs on Kurdish villages - he bombed them with Sarin gas - that is HAVING WMDs. It has nothing to do with imperialism as i don't see any annexations made by the US, nor puppet governments. Ukraine, on the other hand, had territories chipped away from it, separatists backed up Russia for years and years, and now a surprise attack without forward notice. It's completely incomparable to Iraq.

saiya-jin 5y ago
Yeah, Saddam did that in 80s, US was still cooperating with him due to Iran/Iraq war (remember that Saddam-Rumsfeld photo? It wasn't staged or some freak coincidence but regular business/military talks and pats on the back). Those attacks didn't stop the cooperation. I don't think anybody powerful really cared about those poor civilians, it was just pretext but in this case a real one. Anyway back to the topic - we europeans look at this war as existential threat to our democracy, its not about just Ukraine anymore. That's why thousands javelins and stingers were provided by US, UK and other states which allowed them to defend till now. After Ukraine, it would be increasing russian circle towards west - baltic states, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania. Thats 100 million of people who know very well how horrible the life is under russian oppression and terror. Its also in US interests that this pans out with russians losing and stopping their imperialism - Europe is by far the biggest US ally (count 500 million relatively rich people), losing it would mean US power becomes progressively marginal in this world. Nobody free wants that, there are plenty of bullies out there, small and big.
- pishpash 5y ago
  I mean sure, but then you'd understand why eastward expansion of a military alliance could be construed as an existential threat, too. There's just a lot of unnecessary hypocrisy all around. It should also be said that, who is a bully depends on whose interests one happens to align with. Maybe transatlantic interests are always magically aligned forever but somehow I doubt it. One should wonder why or how that comes about, and at whose expense.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    Sorry but no. I hate when people, ie when talking truth and outright lie, try to drag discussion into 'its somewhere in between', or 'consider the side of this murderer, he has needs and insecurities too'. Who gives a f*k what some murderous dictator wants or not. That's undefendable position these days. He had done enough evil in this world in past 20 years and cost lives of millions civilians including many children that he can shake hands with Hitler, Stalin and Mao. Anything Russian is a big no-go. I guess they really have to build their tanks from wood now, since they failed with Armata tanks so badly (but for Russia predictably). Do you also point out some traumatic events from Hitler's childhood as some form of excuse for his actions? He was also just trying to expand his country to what he seemed as more ideal setup and give it better future. This abhorable little man stands against everything western democracies value very dearly. He managed to do 1 thing almost perfectly though - unify whole Europe and in fact most of the world in a way that leaders were failing for decades. Its just that its against him and his crooks and murderers. Hopefully the momentum will remain for long. As they say, the society is defined by common enemy, and well he is the best there could be right now. He would be comical if his actions were not killing hundreds of people every single day right now.
    - pishpash 5y ago
      When we discuss WWII these days we look at what led to it pre-war, policy mistakes, etc. That isn't condoning war or invasion, just cold, hard analysis. The lesson was: more integration, less punitive extraction from the defeated. That lesson was learned and largely applied to the defeated side of WWII. The same lesson should have been applied after defeating the USSR in the Cold War, but it was not. There is a straight line from there to here. With each action based on emotion and ideology even at this late juncture we're going down the path of more war, not more peace, so probably Europe is fucked for the next generation regardless, due to its own stupidity.

saiya-jin 5y ago

Yeah, Saddam did that in 80s, US was still cooperating with him due to Iran/Iraq war (remember that Saddam-Rumsfeld photo? It wasn't staged or some freak coincidence but regular business/military talks and pats on the back). Those attacks didn't stop the cooperation. I don't think anybody powerful really cared about those poor civilians, it was just pretext but in this case a real one. Anyway back to the topic - we europeans look at this war as existential threat to our democracy, its not about just Ukraine anymore. That's why thousands javelins and stingers were provided by US, UK and other states which allowed them to defend till now. After Ukraine, it would be increasing russian circle towards west - baltic states, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania. Thats 100 million of people who know very well how horrible the life is under russian oppression and terror. Its also in US interests that this pans out with russians losing and stopping their imperialism - Europe is by far the biggest US ally (count 500 million relatively rich people), losing it would mean US power becomes progressively marginal in this world. Nobody free wants that, there are plenty of bullies out there, small and big.

pishpash 5y ago
I mean sure, but then you'd understand why eastward expansion of a military alliance could be construed as an existential threat, too. There's just a lot of unnecessary hypocrisy all around. It should also be said that, who is a bully depends on whose interests one happens to align with. Maybe transatlantic interests are always magically aligned forever but somehow I doubt it. One should wonder why or how that comes about, and at whose expense.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  Sorry but no. I hate when people, ie when talking truth and outright lie, try to drag discussion into 'its somewhere in between', or 'consider the side of this murderer, he has needs and insecurities too'. Who gives a f*k what some murderous dictator wants or not. That's undefendable position these days. He had done enough evil in this world in past 20 years and cost lives of millions civilians including many children that he can shake hands with Hitler, Stalin and Mao. Anything Russian is a big no-go. I guess they really have to build their tanks from wood now, since they failed with Armata tanks so badly (but for Russia predictably). Do you also point out some traumatic events from Hitler's childhood as some form of excuse for his actions? He was also just trying to expand his country to what he seemed as more ideal setup and give it better future. This abhorable little man stands against everything western democracies value very dearly. He managed to do 1 thing almost perfectly though - unify whole Europe and in fact most of the world in a way that leaders were failing for decades. Its just that its against him and his crooks and murderers. Hopefully the momentum will remain for long. As they say, the society is defined by common enemy, and well he is the best there could be right now. He would be comical if his actions were not killing hundreds of people every single day right now.
  - pishpash 5y ago
    When we discuss WWII these days we look at what led to it pre-war, policy mistakes, etc. That isn't condoning war or invasion, just cold, hard analysis. The lesson was: more integration, less punitive extraction from the defeated. That lesson was learned and largely applied to the defeated side of WWII. The same lesson should have been applied after defeating the USSR in the Cold War, but it was not. There is a straight line from there to here. With each action based on emotion and ideology even at this late juncture we're going down the path of more war, not more peace, so probably Europe is fucked for the next generation regardless, due to its own stupidity.