4 ms·

Hungary will not allow lethal weapons for Ukraine to transit its territory

62 points by georgecmu 5y ago

labster 5y ago
Probably it will not be an issue for anyone. The Hungarian-Ukrainian border is short and not on a major route. And Europe has lots of practice avoiding Hungary lately. The self-preservation argument in the OP seems like an excuse for not taking a hard line on Russia, but as long as they don’t obstruct European policy as a whole it’s mostly symbolic.
- throwoutway 5y ago
  > And Europe has lots of practice avoiding Hungary lately. Did some airspace thing happen recently in Hungary that I missed?
  - labster 5y ago
    Nah, I meant more like avoiding them at dinner parties or diplomatic receptions.
squarefoot 5y ago
Hardly surprising, considering who is Hungary PM. https://balkaninsight.com/2022/02/16/orbans-cheerleading-for-putin-follow-the-money/ https://balkaninsight.com/2022/02/16/orbans-cheerleading-for...
- me_me_me 5y ago
  PM or proto dictator, seriously Orban controls media - as owner of them - and uses them to fight his opponents. Number of controversial laws. Very close personal ties and meeting with Putin etc I wouldn't be surprised if his people are funded by kremlin, it happened in czech republic, so its not unfeasible
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
Ok, I had always assumed EU had some sort of interstate commerce regulations a la the U.S which would make this illegal. Although thinking about it I can see how that assumption doesn't work because different countries can keep things out that other countries don't regulate.
- briffid 5y ago
  Delivering lethal weapons to a war is hardly commerce.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    if those weapons have been sold it is commerce, at any rate lots of things are called commerce that might stretch the definition so...
- HWR_14 5y ago
  The EU doesn't have customs, which is why you think about US interstate commerce. But military movements are always different. Heck, some countries (Greece, iirc) don't even allow nuclear powered warships in their waters
anshumankmr 5y ago
Might be a silly question but can it not just fly over Hungary? I don't think Hungary would really try to shoot down a plane carrying weapons for Ukraine, right?
- briffid 5y ago
  Fact is that the weapons are partly transported by Hungarian C-17 planes. Hungary EU and NATO member and executes her duties, but if possible I think it is OK to try to reduce risks.
- jesterson 5y ago
  Hungary needs to provide air corridor in this case, which is something they are luckily reluctant to do.
dmortin 5y ago
Orbán looks up to Putin, he uses his methods against the opposition in Hungary and wishes having power like him, but of course Hungary is a tiny country, so his leeway is much more limited. Yet, he wants to show Putin he's not against him, not even in this situation.
- HstryrsrBttn 5y ago
briffid 5y ago
Reuters forgot to mention the second part of the argument. 150k+ Hungarian people do live in Ukraine and they could be attacked directly. All countries are allowed to assess the risks of involvement. Hungary's border with Ukraine is short anyway. Hungary participates in all sanctions, even though they hurt the country's economy a lot more than others. Some of the weapons are transported using Hungarian C17s by the way, so Hungary does actively participate according to the NATO and EU decisions.
- aix1 5y ago
  > 150k+ Hungarian people do live in Ukraine and they could be attacked directly. I am clearly not in a position to conduct risk assessments on anyone else's behalf, but I personally don't find this argument particularly compelling. It would require the invading army to specifically seek out those 0.3% of the population that are Hungarian to exact revenge on them. Further, to avoid the impression that Hungarians are somehow a particularly large ethnic group in Ukraine, there are comparable numbers of Bulgarians, Romanians and Poles living there.
- th3sly 5y ago
  Also Reuters forgot to mention that Hungary is also a revisionist country as Russia is, and that it wants Transylvania, part of Slovakia and part of Serbia.
  - briffid 5y ago
    Why not full Slovakia, part of Austria (Burgenland), Slovenia and whole Croatia? All them were lost for Hungary after WWI. :D Anyway, Hungary is not a revisionist country, there are revisionist politicians who has never ever been part of the government since 1990. However, the little core of truth in your statement is that there has been tense relations between the Hungrian ethnic minorities and the majorities in neighboring countries, and even though e.g. both Romania and Hungary are EU members, there is still discrimination based on ethnicity/language/religion. (The most extreme neighboring country is Ukraine, where minority languages are effectively banned in schools and public insitutes. That's one thing why Ukraine cannot easily join EU.) The Serbian relation is getting better (cultural autonomy is provided for Hungarian minority). I must also note that the vast majority of people in Hungary goes along well with Slovaks, Romanians etc., and the Hungarian people living as minority also are quite fine with people the live together with, so these issues are mostly happening in politics. For example Slovakia banned singing the Hungarian anthem in 2019 https://newsnow.tasr.sk/policy/simon-ban-on-singing-of-hungarian-anthem-in-slovakia-stirs-tension/ https://newsnow.tasr.sk/policy/simon-ban-on-singing-of-hunga... I wonder what would be a good policy for such an unfriendly act.
beardyw 5y ago
>we have to ensure the security of Hungary I would have thought belonging to NATO would have been a deterrent to Russian attacks.

62 points by georgecmu 5y ago

Probably it will not be an issue for anyone. The Hungarian-Ukrainian border is short and not on a major route. And Europe has lots of practice avoiding Hungary lately. The self-preservation argument in the OP seems like an excuse for not taking a hard line on Russia, but as long as they don’t obstruct European policy as a whole it’s mostly symbolic.

throwoutway 5y ago
> And Europe has lots of practice avoiding Hungary lately. Did some airspace thing happen recently in Hungary that I missed?
- labster 5y ago
  Nah, I meant more like avoiding them at dinner parties or diplomatic receptions.

squarefoot 5y ago

Hardly surprising, considering who is Hungary PM. https://balkaninsight.com/2022/02/16/orbans-cheerleading-for-putin-follow-the-money/ https://balkaninsight.com/2022/02/16/orbans-cheerleading-for...

me_me_me 5y ago
PM or proto dictator, seriously Orban controls media - as owner of them - and uses them to fight his opponents. Number of controversial laws. Very close personal ties and meeting with Putin etc I wouldn't be surprised if his people are funded by kremlin, it happened in czech republic, so its not unfeasible

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

Ok, I had always assumed EU had some sort of interstate commerce regulations a la the U.S which would make this illegal. Although thinking about it I can see how that assumption doesn't work because different countries can keep things out that other countries don't regulate.

briffid 5y ago
Delivering lethal weapons to a war is hardly commerce.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  if those weapons have been sold it is commerce, at any rate lots of things are called commerce that might stretch the definition so...
HWR_14 5y ago
The EU doesn't have customs, which is why you think about US interstate commerce. But military movements are always different. Heck, some countries (Greece, iirc) don't even allow nuclear powered warships in their waters

anshumankmr 5y ago

Might be a silly question but can it not just fly over Hungary? I don't think Hungary would really try to shoot down a plane carrying weapons for Ukraine, right?

briffid 5y ago
Fact is that the weapons are partly transported by Hungarian C-17 planes. Hungary EU and NATO member and executes her duties, but if possible I think it is OK to try to reduce risks.
jesterson 5y ago
Hungary needs to provide air corridor in this case, which is something they are luckily reluctant to do.

dmortin 5y ago

Orbán looks up to Putin, he uses his methods against the opposition in Hungary and wishes having power like him, but of course Hungary is a tiny country, so his leeway is much more limited. Yet, he wants to show Putin he's not against him, not even in this situation.

HstryrsrBttn 5y ago

briffid 5y ago

Reuters forgot to mention the second part of the argument. 150k+ Hungarian people do live in Ukraine and they could be attacked directly. All countries are allowed to assess the risks of involvement. Hungary's border with Ukraine is short anyway. Hungary participates in all sanctions, even though they hurt the country's economy a lot more than others. Some of the weapons are transported using Hungarian C17s by the way, so Hungary does actively participate according to the NATO and EU decisions.

aix1 5y ago
> 150k+ Hungarian people do live in Ukraine and they could be attacked directly. I am clearly not in a position to conduct risk assessments on anyone else's behalf, but I personally don't find this argument particularly compelling. It would require the invading army to specifically seek out those 0.3% of the population that are Hungarian to exact revenge on them. Further, to avoid the impression that Hungarians are somehow a particularly large ethnic group in Ukraine, there are comparable numbers of Bulgarians, Romanians and Poles living there.
th3sly 5y ago
Also Reuters forgot to mention that Hungary is also a revisionist country as Russia is, and that it wants Transylvania, part of Slovakia and part of Serbia.
- briffid 5y ago
  Why not full Slovakia, part of Austria (Burgenland), Slovenia and whole Croatia? All them were lost for Hungary after WWI. :D Anyway, Hungary is not a revisionist country, there are revisionist politicians who has never ever been part of the government since 1990. However, the little core of truth in your statement is that there has been tense relations between the Hungrian ethnic minorities and the majorities in neighboring countries, and even though e.g. both Romania and Hungary are EU members, there is still discrimination based on ethnicity/language/religion. (The most extreme neighboring country is Ukraine, where minority languages are effectively banned in schools and public insitutes. That's one thing why Ukraine cannot easily join EU.) The Serbian relation is getting better (cultural autonomy is provided for Hungarian minority). I must also note that the vast majority of people in Hungary goes along well with Slovaks, Romanians etc., and the Hungarian people living as minority also are quite fine with people the live together with, so these issues are mostly happening in politics. For example Slovakia banned singing the Hungarian anthem in 2019 https://newsnow.tasr.sk/policy/simon-ban-on-singing-of-hungarian-anthem-in-slovakia-stirs-tension/ https://newsnow.tasr.sk/policy/simon-ban-on-singing-of-hunga... I wonder what would be a good policy for such an unfriendly act.

beardyw 5y ago

>we have to ensure the security of Hungary I would have thought belonging to NATO would have been a deterrent to Russian attacks.