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Safari is crippled when it comes to building web apps that aren't beholden to the Apple tax and control. How the fsck is that better than having a single web en

by izacus 5y ago

Safari is crippled when it comes to building web apps that aren't beholden to the Apple tax and control. How the fsck is that better than having a single web engine that makes web apps equals among native apps and avoids monopolistic american megacorp from telling you what you're allowed to create? Do you really wish corporate control so much? Do you want to go through Apple review for your websites as well? It's incredible how brand fanboyism clouds your minds - this isn't about engine competition, it's about making free web an equal player to golden cages of app stores.

FridgeSeal 5y ago
> How the fsck is that better than having a single web engine that makes web apps equals among native apps and avoids monopolistic american megacorp from telling you what you're allowed to create? You mean, like Chrome? Developed by the monopolistic American megacorp called Google? Also, if PWA’s and Electron apps are your version of “equal to native” I’m going to have to strongly disagree.
- izacus 5y ago
  Yes, I prefer strong Chrome market share with possibility of competition from Apple, Mozilla and others. I strongly believe Apple is capable of building a better browser even if they don't get to cripple their competition with monopolistic practices. Instead, you're defending Apple monopoly where they ban all competition, stagnate web development and make PWAs and other web-apps a non-viable possibility on their devices. All because... you don't like Chrome? Although you'd still have a full option of using Firefox, Safari or others? Why? Because someone else might DARE to use a product THEY prefer?
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > make PWAs and other web-apps a non-viable possibility on their devices It's such a blatant lie about PWAs. And thank god Safari and Mozilla don't implement dozens of Chrome-only non-standards.
- astromd 5y ago
  Agreed. I want more native apps, not less. I cringe when I see web apps that are slow, don’t take advantage of native API’s, and have a completely different look and feel from the OS. No thanks.
  - mtomweb 5y ago
    There’s nothing inherently special to native about painting to the screen 60 times a second. Web Apps if allowed could provide equivalent (and sometimes much better) experiences than native. But it’s a chicken and egg problem, and it’s mainly Apple holding it back.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > There’s nothing inherently special to native about painting to the screen 60 times a second. It isn't, and it's also a near impossibility for the web. > Web Apps if allowed could provide equivalent (and sometimes much better) experiences than native. No. No, they couldn't. Of course, you could say "but WebGL/Canvas/WebGPU", but then you're just building native apps with multiple extra steps.
      - mtomweb 5y ago
        If you can’t get 60fps on a midrange consumer device you are doing something wrong. WebGL / Canvas are web standards, no issue with using them.
        bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        >WebGL / Canvas are web standards, no issue with using them. Accessibility.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        > If you can’t get 60fps on a midrange consumer device you are doing something wrong. Show me how to reliably do 60 FPS on anything that causes re-layout. Example: animating an item added or removed from the list without hacks. > WebGL / Canvas are web standards, no issue with using them. 1. Accessibility 2. These are basically native technologies. So, you're basically using native tech, with extra steps 3. Between WebGL, Canvas and upcoming WebGPU you have three incompatible technologies with a list of shortcomings longer than the equator
irrational 5y ago
If Firefox had 40+% of the browser market share, I would agree. But I think a chrome monopoly is the worst thing that could happen to the web. iOS safari is basically the only thing standing between us and a chrome monopoly. Let’s break that monopoly on all other platforms and then talk about opening iOS up.
- izacus 5y ago
  Can you explain why? Chrome has much better support for web standards, wider API capability and allows you to build better web applications than Safari. How is that bad for the web? Especially when your alternative comes from a company that has vested interest to make web a bad option to funnel profits into their monopolistic app store? Remember, Firefox is not allowed to exist on Apple devices either.
  - bentlegen 5y ago
    Google automatically signs you into Chrome (e.g. Chrome profiles) if you sign into any of Google’s web properties, including Youtube, GSuite, etc. [1] You don’t need tracking pixels for your ad products when you know who every user is operating the browser. This conflict of interest - browser privacy vs. Google’s ad business - is the single reason I now use Firefox [on desktop]. [1] https://www.alphr.com/chrome-auto-sign-in/ https://www.alphr.com/chrome-auto-sign-in/
    - spankalee 5y ago
      It would be great if you could use Firefox on iOS then, wouldn't it?
      - bentlegen 5y ago
        Sure, it would, but I was addressing the issue of "can you explain why [a Chrome monopoly would be bad]".
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > Chrome has much better support for web standards, wider API capability Many of those "standards" and APIs are emphatically not standards despite what Chrome's vast propaganda machine tells you.

by izacus 5y ago

FridgeSeal 5y ago

> How the fsck is that better than having a single web engine that makes web apps equals among native apps and avoids monopolistic american megacorp from telling you what you're allowed to create? You mean, like Chrome? Developed by the monopolistic American megacorp called Google? Also, if PWA’s and Electron apps are your version of “equal to native” I’m going to have to strongly disagree.

izacus 5y ago
Yes, I prefer strong Chrome market share with possibility of competition from Apple, Mozilla and others. I strongly believe Apple is capable of building a better browser even if they don't get to cripple their competition with monopolistic practices. Instead, you're defending Apple monopoly where they ban all competition, stagnate web development and make PWAs and other web-apps a non-viable possibility on their devices. All because... you don't like Chrome? Although you'd still have a full option of using Firefox, Safari or others? Why? Because someone else might DARE to use a product THEY prefer?
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > make PWAs and other web-apps a non-viable possibility on their devices It's such a blatant lie about PWAs. And thank god Safari and Mozilla don't implement dozens of Chrome-only non-standards.
astromd 5y ago
Agreed. I want more native apps, not less. I cringe when I see web apps that are slow, don’t take advantage of native API’s, and have a completely different look and feel from the OS. No thanks.
- mtomweb 5y ago
  There’s nothing inherently special to native about painting to the screen 60 times a second. Web Apps if allowed could provide equivalent (and sometimes much better) experiences than native. But it’s a chicken and egg problem, and it’s mainly Apple holding it back.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > There’s nothing inherently special to native about painting to the screen 60 times a second. It isn't, and it's also a near impossibility for the web. > Web Apps if allowed could provide equivalent (and sometimes much better) experiences than native. No. No, they couldn't. Of course, you could say "but WebGL/Canvas/WebGPU", but then you're just building native apps with multiple extra steps.
    - mtomweb 5y ago
      If you can’t get 60fps on a midrange consumer device you are doing something wrong. WebGL / Canvas are web standards, no issue with using them.
      - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        >WebGL / Canvas are web standards, no issue with using them. Accessibility.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > If you can’t get 60fps on a midrange consumer device you are doing something wrong. Show me how to reliably do 60 FPS on anything that causes re-layout. Example: animating an item added or removed from the list without hacks. > WebGL / Canvas are web standards, no issue with using them. 1. Accessibility 2. These are basically native technologies. So, you're basically using native tech, with extra steps 3. Between WebGL, Canvas and upcoming WebGPU you have three incompatible technologies with a list of shortcomings longer than the equator

irrational 5y ago

If Firefox had 40+% of the browser market share, I would agree. But I think a chrome monopoly is the worst thing that could happen to the web. iOS safari is basically the only thing standing between us and a chrome monopoly. Let’s break that monopoly on all other platforms and then talk about opening iOS up.

izacus 5y ago
Can you explain why? Chrome has much better support for web standards, wider API capability and allows you to build better web applications than Safari. How is that bad for the web? Especially when your alternative comes from a company that has vested interest to make web a bad option to funnel profits into their monopolistic app store? Remember, Firefox is not allowed to exist on Apple devices either.
- bentlegen 5y ago
  Google automatically signs you into Chrome (e.g. Chrome profiles) if you sign into any of Google’s web properties, including Youtube, GSuite, etc. [1] You don’t need tracking pixels for your ad products when you know who every user is operating the browser. This conflict of interest - browser privacy vs. Google’s ad business - is the single reason I now use Firefox [on desktop]. [1] https://www.alphr.com/chrome-auto-sign-in/ https://www.alphr.com/chrome-auto-sign-in/
  - spankalee 5y ago
    It would be great if you could use Firefox on iOS then, wouldn't it?
    - bentlegen 5y ago
      Sure, it would, but I was addressing the issue of "can you explain why [a Chrome monopoly would be bad]".
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Chrome has much better support for web standards, wider API capability Many of those "standards" and APIs are emphatically not standards despite what Chrome's vast propaganda machine tells you.