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> it is another thing entirely to celebrate businesses acting in ways to inflict the most suffering possible on the people least able to handle such abuse No o

> it is another thing entirely to celebrate businesses acting in ways to inflict the most suffering possible on the people least able to handle such abuse No one is celebrating, I assure you. The crumbling economy, all of the restrictions, their children captured abroad, all these facts amount to a serious conversation amongst Russian people that can lead to a critical mass of people going into the streets and protesting. Look at December 1989 Romania, for a textbook example of people pushed too far with nothing to lose, taking matters in their own hands. It can happen again, but not so long as the Russian people don't feel the sting. It needs to be delivered fast and hard for people to trust that the great majority is with them.

IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
I notice there is a lot of they in your statement. What about you ?
necovek 5y ago
Was Romania under any sanctions at the time? People do overthrow lousy governments. I have yet to see proof that it happens as a consequence of sanctions. Sanctions lead to people scrambling for survival, and those in power profiting further.
- Larrikin 5y ago
  If sanctions are worthless, would you rather all the sanctioning countries militarily invade Russia and take out Putin and all the oligarchs? That was what used to happen when countries had wars with each other. Won't ordinary Russians suffer even more than having to move their domain names to a local provider? Should belligerent countries be able to invade any country they want and suffer no consequences? You seem to be advocating for no consequences and having Ukrainians constantly die in a war just so the average Russian isn't inconvenienced What is actually your alternative suggestion that you think will have real world and quick effects?
  - necovek 5y ago
    I am saying that sanctions on Russia will not affect any Ukranians dying or not. They will strictly make Russian "common people" suffer, and won't hurt their political elite either, and will likely make it stronger. A way to remove any pre-text for wars like these is to allow secession by the UN, and to specifically allow regions (regardless of any existing drawn-up province/state borders) to split out in a democratic poll, with some costs involved (eg. repaying any investments in the region as if it was a loan, possibly land-resources tax based on percentage of GDP or something, but also some guarantees like no excessive tax on imports or visas for seceding regions). Then there would be no Ukrainian claim on separatist-controlled regions in the East, and no Russian claim on the rest of the provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk that separatists control 1/3 of. Basically, all the wars in Europe since the 90s were strictly led about territories with majority population of a region not being majority population of the country (Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, now Ukraine). In the short term, it would have led to a bunch of "city-states", but like throughout history, they would re-unite and separate ad infinitum: as long as we can figure out a fair financial framework (that's less costly than war to all parties, otherwise, war will be resorted to anyway), there's nothing wrong about countries splitting up or reuniting. Of course, just removing this pre-text for the war (he's "saving" Russians who live in Eastern Ukraine) might not have stopped Putin. But without knowing what "excuse" they'd come up with, I can't argue what the best course of action would have been. The best course of action today is to recognize these realities, and work toward agreements that put this ("these parts of Ukraine are independent") into effect. That's going to be pretty hard to happen though.
    - lovehashbrowns 5y ago
      There is literally no conceivable way Ukraine was ever going to remain independent as long as Putin is in control of Russia. Everything you talked about has already been done--Ukraine gained independence and, after years of Ukraine-NATO relations, began actively seeking membership in the alliance and with the EU. For example, in 2002: > "Ukraine's total integration into NATO is dictated by the reality of European and world politics, particularly after the tragic events of Sept. 11 in the United States," Kuchma said in a statement. > "We are aware that joining NATO will be a long process and we will do everything possible," he added. https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2002/07/09/Ukraine-reiterates-bid-to-join-NATO/98381026239823/?ur3=1 https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2002/07/09/Ukraine-reiterat... Followed by a formal attempt in 2008: > Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and Parliamentary Chairman Arseniy Yatsenyuk have signed the statement calling for consideration on Ukraine`s entry into the NATO membership action plan at the Bucharest summit" ... https://www.unian.info/world/89447-ukraine-asks-to-join-nato-membership-action-plan.html https://www.unian.info/world/89447-ukraine-asks-to-join-nato... Then we get the events of 2014 in Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity where Yanukovych is kicked out because of his refusal to sign a trade agreement with the EU. There are more than 2 decades of history pointing to Ukraine's willingness to join Europe and NATO. And this is all backed by the people, both by the election of their leaders and by force. So literally all of this fully agrees with the entirety of your "solution." How have we ended up here? For one, Ukraine has natural gas and oil reserves--and if Ukraine can sell that to Europe, then Europe can rely on Russia just a little bit less. This was a big part of Russia taking Crimea and eastern Ukraine. But unfortunately for Ukraine, there are reserves on the western part of Ukraine, too. If Putin wants /all/ of the reserves, the entirety of Ukraine has to go. Secondly, Ukraine is vital in a defense of Russia from a European attack. Putin consistently brings up Cuba in his reasoning for considering Ukraine's entry into NATO an act of war. And lastly, but perhaps most significantly, is Putin's view of the relationship between Ukraine and Russia. https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/russia-and-ukraine-one-people-putin-claims https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentar... Basically, Ukraine was a point of pride for the USSR. It was host to a significant portion of the USSR's nuclear armaments, it was an important part of the economy, had a lot of natural resources, etc. (Of course, this is all a rose-colored view of the USSR from Putin's perspective.) And then the USSR collapsed and all of these different Soviet states gained independence--including Ukraine. Although Ukraine and Russia continued to share their culture, and their people continued to go back and forth over the two countries' borders, Ukraine was slowly betraying literally everything that the USSR stood for (according to Putin). Putin doesn't see any of this as being driven by the people of Ukraine--he thinks this is all the West interfering in Ukraine's politics. He specifically says this in all of his writings and speeches; Ukraine was POISONED by the West to "betray" its Russian heritage (USSR). Do you really think Putin would accept this: "A way to remove any pre-text for wars like these is to allow secession by the UN, and to specifically allow regions (regardless of any existing drawn-up province/state borders) to split out in a democratic poll" When 1. that has LITERALLY already happened, and 2. Any result of such a poll would be considered the West poisoning the pride and joy of the USSR, Ukraine? Read Putin's writings and listen to his speeches. Take the words literally and read between the lines. You'll realize that independence for Ukraine was /never/ an option so long as Putin (or his ideology) is in charge of Russia. Ukraine joining NATO was ALWAYS going to be a declaration of war. This same concept applies to Georgia. In an okay world, both Ukraine and Georgia are what Belarus is today in its relations to Russia. "Independent" and "sovereign" in name only. In an ideal world, the USSR stands as a superpower. ------ Edits ------ This decent YouTube video describes the relationship between the two countries as "Putin is just like [Ukraine's bitter] ex." https://youtu.be/LJNtfyq3TDE https://youtu.be/LJNtfyq3TDE [The REAL Reason Putin is Invading Ukraine] by Johnny Harris This other YouTube video is great as well: https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE [Why Russia is Invading Ukraine] by RealLifeLore.

IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago

I notice there is a lot of they in your statement. What about you ?

necovek 5y ago

Was Romania under any sanctions at the time? People do overthrow lousy governments. I have yet to see proof that it happens as a consequence of sanctions. Sanctions lead to people scrambling for survival, and those in power profiting further.

Larrikin 5y ago
If sanctions are worthless, would you rather all the sanctioning countries militarily invade Russia and take out Putin and all the oligarchs? That was what used to happen when countries had wars with each other. Won't ordinary Russians suffer even more than having to move their domain names to a local provider? Should belligerent countries be able to invade any country they want and suffer no consequences? You seem to be advocating for no consequences and having Ukrainians constantly die in a war just so the average Russian isn't inconvenienced What is actually your alternative suggestion that you think will have real world and quick effects?
- necovek 5y ago
  I am saying that sanctions on Russia will not affect any Ukranians dying or not. They will strictly make Russian "common people" suffer, and won't hurt their political elite either, and will likely make it stronger. A way to remove any pre-text for wars like these is to allow secession by the UN, and to specifically allow regions (regardless of any existing drawn-up province/state borders) to split out in a democratic poll, with some costs involved (eg. repaying any investments in the region as if it was a loan, possibly land-resources tax based on percentage of GDP or something, but also some guarantees like no excessive tax on imports or visas for seceding regions). Then there would be no Ukrainian claim on separatist-controlled regions in the East, and no Russian claim on the rest of the provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk that separatists control 1/3 of. Basically, all the wars in Europe since the 90s were strictly led about territories with majority population of a region not being majority population of the country (Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, now Ukraine). In the short term, it would have led to a bunch of "city-states", but like throughout history, they would re-unite and separate ad infinitum: as long as we can figure out a fair financial framework (that's less costly than war to all parties, otherwise, war will be resorted to anyway), there's nothing wrong about countries splitting up or reuniting. Of course, just removing this pre-text for the war (he's "saving" Russians who live in Eastern Ukraine) might not have stopped Putin. But without knowing what "excuse" they'd come up with, I can't argue what the best course of action would have been. The best course of action today is to recognize these realities, and work toward agreements that put this ("these parts of Ukraine are independent") into effect. That's going to be pretty hard to happen though.
  - lovehashbrowns 5y ago
    There is literally no conceivable way Ukraine was ever going to remain independent as long as Putin is in control of Russia. Everything you talked about has already been done--Ukraine gained independence and, after years of Ukraine-NATO relations, began actively seeking membership in the alliance and with the EU. For example, in 2002: > "Ukraine's total integration into NATO is dictated by the reality of European and world politics, particularly after the tragic events of Sept. 11 in the United States," Kuchma said in a statement. > "We are aware that joining NATO will be a long process and we will do everything possible," he added. https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2002/07/09/Ukraine-reiterates-bid-to-join-NATO/98381026239823/?ur3=1 https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2002/07/09/Ukraine-reiterat... Followed by a formal attempt in 2008: > Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and Parliamentary Chairman Arseniy Yatsenyuk have signed the statement calling for consideration on Ukraine`s entry into the NATO membership action plan at the Bucharest summit" ... https://www.unian.info/world/89447-ukraine-asks-to-join-nato-membership-action-plan.html https://www.unian.info/world/89447-ukraine-asks-to-join-nato... Then we get the events of 2014 in Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity where Yanukovych is kicked out because of his refusal to sign a trade agreement with the EU. There are more than 2 decades of history pointing to Ukraine's willingness to join Europe and NATO. And this is all backed by the people, both by the election of their leaders and by force. So literally all of this fully agrees with the entirety of your "solution." How have we ended up here? For one, Ukraine has natural gas and oil reserves--and if Ukraine can sell that to Europe, then Europe can rely on Russia just a little bit less. This was a big part of Russia taking Crimea and eastern Ukraine. But unfortunately for Ukraine, there are reserves on the western part of Ukraine, too. If Putin wants /all/ of the reserves, the entirety of Ukraine has to go. Secondly, Ukraine is vital in a defense of Russia from a European attack. Putin consistently brings up Cuba in his reasoning for considering Ukraine's entry into NATO an act of war. And lastly, but perhaps most significantly, is Putin's view of the relationship between Ukraine and Russia. https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/russia-and-ukraine-one-people-putin-claims https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentar... Basically, Ukraine was a point of pride for the USSR. It was host to a significant portion of the USSR's nuclear armaments, it was an important part of the economy, had a lot of natural resources, etc. (Of course, this is all a rose-colored view of the USSR from Putin's perspective.) And then the USSR collapsed and all of these different Soviet states gained independence--including Ukraine. Although Ukraine and Russia continued to share their culture, and their people continued to go back and forth over the two countries' borders, Ukraine was slowly betraying literally everything that the USSR stood for (according to Putin). Putin doesn't see any of this as being driven by the people of Ukraine--he thinks this is all the West interfering in Ukraine's politics. He specifically says this in all of his writings and speeches; Ukraine was POISONED by the West to "betray" its Russian heritage (USSR). Do you really think Putin would accept this: "A way to remove any pre-text for wars like these is to allow secession by the UN, and to specifically allow regions (regardless of any existing drawn-up province/state borders) to split out in a democratic poll" When 1. that has LITERALLY already happened, and 2. Any result of such a poll would be considered the West poisoning the pride and joy of the USSR, Ukraine? Read Putin's writings and listen to his speeches. Take the words literally and read between the lines. You'll realize that independence for Ukraine was /never/ an option so long as Putin (or his ideology) is in charge of Russia. Ukraine joining NATO was ALWAYS going to be a declaration of war. This same concept applies to Georgia. In an okay world, both Ukraine and Georgia are what Belarus is today in its relations to Russia. "Independent" and "sovereign" in name only. In an ideal world, the USSR stands as a superpower. ------ Edits ------ This decent YouTube video describes the relationship between the two countries as "Putin is just like [Ukraine's bitter] ex." https://youtu.be/LJNtfyq3TDE https://youtu.be/LJNtfyq3TDE [The REAL Reason Putin is Invading Ukraine] by Johnny Harris This other YouTube video is great as well: https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE [Why Russia is Invading Ukraine] by RealLifeLore.