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Please kindly check your whataboutism at the door. It's not HN-caliber discussion.

eindiran 5y ago
OP's comment is not whataboutism. It's simply pointing out that this is not the principled stand it is masquerading as. If this action was strictly about countries waging unprovoked wars heavily laden with war crimes, the US would be on the chopping block from NC's perspective. That we were not (nor ever will be) is a testament to the fact that the US is too lucrative a market for them to lose and that this is not principled whatsoever.
- otterley 5y ago
  Attacking a position solely because it is inconsistent is the definition of whataboutism. (And perfect consistency is the enemy of improving short-term outcomes.)
  - eindiran 5y ago
    "A propaganda technique where criticisms are deflected by raising corresponding criticisms of the opposite side."[0] OP is not deflecting criticisms of Russia, OP is pointing out that the claim that NC is taking a principled stance is blatantly false. Obviously NC can still choose to proceed since they believe that this is a net benefit, but they cannot claim it is a principled stance. [0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutism https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutism > And perfect consistency is the enemy of improving short-term outcomes. Sure, I can agree with that point. But everyone can agree that pointing out inconsistency is definitionally not whataboutism.
    - otterley 5y ago
      Whether you call it whataboutism or something else, my point remains: it is still a cheap argument anyone can throw out that isn't HN-caliber.
      - eindiran 5y ago
        Calling repeatedly for violent revolution isn't HN-caliber certainly but that hasn't stopped you from doing it all over this thread. <- This is whataboutism by the way.
        otterley 5y ago
        Sorry, what was the point of this?
        eindiran 5y ago
        Sorry, that was a bit rude and pointless. I apologize. I am just frustrated that your comments all over this thread are suggesting that people should take up arms and violently overthrow their governments in Venezuela and Russia, but you are here policing good-taste commenting on HN. I don't really know how to address the meat of your point, in that I think OP's point is a perfectly legitimate one and you don't, and I think it is unlikely that I would ever be able to convince you (and you will certainly never be able to convince me).
  - zo1 5y ago
    No, crying out "whataboutism" is precisely what is wrong with our discourse ATM. We are simply unprincipled or contradictory in huge swathes of our daily lives and especially when it comes to these "large" issues. And it is an especially important element in a site like HN with many technical and (rule or process) orientated people. You have to peel back the layers, and the GP comment is spot on in that it spawns a discussion along the lines of "why is this one different?" If we figure out that difference and the collective news and opinion's community apparent double-standard (or not) then we have a good place to allow us to move forward. Address it, don't dismiss it.
    - otterley 5y ago
      Nobody’s perfect; everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. And we have more pressing matters to address right now, such as Russia invading Ukraine. If a company wants to stop doing business in a country that’s doing wrong, we should support that. If that same company (or a different one) wants to boycott the U.S., they’re welcome to do that, too. People have their reasons for doing things and they’re not always consistent, because life is complex and nuanced, actions must be prioritized, and choices often involve weighing different trade-offs.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Svettie 5y ago
You and others use "whataboutism" like it's some sort of checkmate. The point is, many Americans are very eager to police everyone based on their "principles", everyone else except themselves and their allies that is. The topic of discussion is not whether or not the Russian invasion of Ukraine is bad. If it was, your argument would be applicable. This topic is analogous to "selective enforcement" from police. If a policeman typically jails blacks but gives whites a warning for the same crime, this is bad, and should be acknowledged as such. Same here.
- otterley 5y ago
  You're comparing a civil-rights violation to a business inconvenience. Namecheap and others like them owe nobody anything except by contract, and they're going to refund (to the extent possible) those they won't do business with anymore.
  - Svettie 5y ago
    It's hypocrisy nonetheless, regardless of the scale
    - otterley 5y ago
      Pointing out hypocrisy is a cheap shot, though, because everyone's a hypocrite to one degree or another. As I've said elsewhere, pointing out hypocrisy usually gets you nowhere in an argument. It's seen by many as a vain attempt to show how smart you are and is generally just a distraction, as opposed to a participation in a substantive discussion of the issue at hand.
      - Svettie 5y ago
        Maybe that's how you feel, but not me. I try to live in a principled way, and I think many other people do as well. So I support calling out hypocrisy because I think it makes the world a better place (I would like my own views also challenged on these grounds). In this case, the hypocritical action is needlessly divisive because it paints Russians as "the other", and I don't think this type of thinking helps the world in the long-term.
FpUser 5y ago
>"It's not HN-caliber" Are you suggesting that the hypocrisy is?
Aperocky 5y ago
Whataboutism usually follows some kind of hypocrisy. The act of pointing out whataboutism are usually done so the hypocritical side can take refuge and refute any discussion. This often happen because hypocrisy is real - otherwise it would be easy to refute the equivalence instead.
- otterley 5y ago
  As I've said elsewhere, pointing out hypocrisy usually gets you nowhere in an argument. It's seen by many as a vain attempt to show how smart you are, as opposed to participating in a substantive discussion of the issue at hand.
  - RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
    > As I've said elsewhere, pointing out hypocrisy usually gets you nowhere in an argument. It does sometimes gets you somewhere. Hypocrisy implies the (often moral) concern over the accusation is not a genuine one, that the accusers are merely criticising to advance their agenda. If an agenda is involved, then whatever the accuser says should be taken with some grain of salt.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - tomp 5y ago
    Pointing out hypocrisy destroys the argument & the discussion as a whole, because it reveals that the other person is arguing in bad faith. In case of Namecheap: it’s 100% complete bullshit when they say they hate war & invasions, and people are calling them out on that. Instead, they should say “we prefer when US invades, because we hate Russia” which would be much closer to the truth.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - otterley 5y ago
_-david-_ 5y ago
Calling out whataboutism is just a way to avoid explaining your inconsistent views. Often times people who call out whataboutism haven't really thought out their position.
- otterley 5y ago
  No, I’m calling it out because it cheapens our discourse. We can, and should, have more substantive conversations here.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    So instead of saying “whataboutism” you can tell us why it’s okay to be hypocritical, or why the situation is sufficiently different. Making statements that are hypocritical cheapens discourse, and we can and should have more substantive conversations here.
    - otterley 5y ago
      You’re putting the burden of the work on the wrong party. It’s the lazy hypocrite hunter who needs to focus that energy making substantive arguments instead. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

OP's comment is not whataboutism. It's simply pointing out that this is not the principled stand it is masquerading as. If this action was strictly about countries waging unprovoked wars heavily laden with war crimes, the US would be on the chopping block from NC's perspective. That we were not (nor ever will be) is a testament to the fact that the US is too lucrative a market for them to lose and that this is not principled whatsoever.

otterley 5y ago
Attacking a position solely because it is inconsistent is the definition of whataboutism. (And perfect consistency is the enemy of improving short-term outcomes.)
- eindiran 5y ago
  "A propaganda technique where criticisms are deflected by raising corresponding criticisms of the opposite side."[0] OP is not deflecting criticisms of Russia, OP is pointing out that the claim that NC is taking a principled stance is blatantly false. Obviously NC can still choose to proceed since they believe that this is a net benefit, but they cannot claim it is a principled stance. [0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutism https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutism > And perfect consistency is the enemy of improving short-term outcomes. Sure, I can agree with that point. But everyone can agree that pointing out inconsistency is definitionally not whataboutism.
  - otterley 5y ago
    Whether you call it whataboutism or something else, my point remains: it is still a cheap argument anyone can throw out that isn't HN-caliber.
    - eindiran 5y ago
      Calling repeatedly for violent revolution isn't HN-caliber certainly but that hasn't stopped you from doing it all over this thread. <- This is whataboutism by the way.
      - otterley 5y ago
        Sorry, what was the point of this?
        eindiran 5y ago
        Sorry, that was a bit rude and pointless. I apologize. I am just frustrated that your comments all over this thread are suggesting that people should take up arms and violently overthrow their governments in Venezuela and Russia, but you are here policing good-taste commenting on HN. I don't really know how to address the meat of your point, in that I think OP's point is a perfectly legitimate one and you don't, and I think it is unlikely that I would ever be able to convince you (and you will certainly never be able to convince me).
- zo1 5y ago
  No, crying out "whataboutism" is precisely what is wrong with our discourse ATM. We are simply unprincipled or contradictory in huge swathes of our daily lives and especially when it comes to these "large" issues. And it is an especially important element in a site like HN with many technical and (rule or process) orientated people. You have to peel back the layers, and the GP comment is spot on in that it spawns a discussion along the lines of "why is this one different?" If we figure out that difference and the collective news and opinion's community apparent double-standard (or not) then we have a good place to allow us to move forward. Address it, don't dismiss it.
  - otterley 5y ago
    Nobody’s perfect; everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. And we have more pressing matters to address right now, such as Russia invading Ukraine. If a company wants to stop doing business in a country that’s doing wrong, we should support that. If that same company (or a different one) wants to boycott the U.S., they’re welcome to do that, too. People have their reasons for doing things and they’re not always consistent, because life is complex and nuanced, actions must be prioritized, and choices often involve weighing different trade-offs.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Svettie 5y ago

You and others use "whataboutism" like it's some sort of checkmate. The point is, many Americans are very eager to police everyone based on their "principles", everyone else except themselves and their allies that is. The topic of discussion is not whether or not the Russian invasion of Ukraine is bad. If it was, your argument would be applicable. This topic is analogous to "selective enforcement" from police. If a policeman typically jails blacks but gives whites a warning for the same crime, this is bad, and should be acknowledged as such. Same here.

otterley 5y ago
You're comparing a civil-rights violation to a business inconvenience. Namecheap and others like them owe nobody anything except by contract, and they're going to refund (to the extent possible) those they won't do business with anymore.
- Svettie 5y ago
  It's hypocrisy nonetheless, regardless of the scale
  - otterley 5y ago
    Pointing out hypocrisy is a cheap shot, though, because everyone's a hypocrite to one degree or another. As I've said elsewhere, pointing out hypocrisy usually gets you nowhere in an argument. It's seen by many as a vain attempt to show how smart you are and is generally just a distraction, as opposed to a participation in a substantive discussion of the issue at hand.
    - Svettie 5y ago
      Maybe that's how you feel, but not me. I try to live in a principled way, and I think many other people do as well. So I support calling out hypocrisy because I think it makes the world a better place (I would like my own views also challenged on these grounds). In this case, the hypocritical action is needlessly divisive because it paints Russians as "the other", and I don't think this type of thinking helps the world in the long-term.

FpUser 5y ago

>"It's not HN-caliber" Are you suggesting that the hypocrisy is?

Aperocky 5y ago

Whataboutism usually follows some kind of hypocrisy. The act of pointing out whataboutism are usually done so the hypocritical side can take refuge and refute any discussion. This often happen because hypocrisy is real - otherwise it would be easy to refute the equivalence instead.

otterley 5y ago
As I've said elsewhere, pointing out hypocrisy usually gets you nowhere in an argument. It's seen by many as a vain attempt to show how smart you are, as opposed to participating in a substantive discussion of the issue at hand.
- RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
  > As I've said elsewhere, pointing out hypocrisy usually gets you nowhere in an argument. It does sometimes gets you somewhere. Hypocrisy implies the (often moral) concern over the accusation is not a genuine one, that the accusers are merely criticising to advance their agenda. If an agenda is involved, then whatever the accuser says should be taken with some grain of salt.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- tomp 5y ago
  Pointing out hypocrisy destroys the argument & the discussion as a whole, because it reveals that the other person is arguing in bad faith. In case of Namecheap: it’s 100% complete bullshit when they say they hate war & invasions, and people are calling them out on that. Instead, they should say “we prefer when US invades, because we hate Russia” which would be much closer to the truth.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - otterley 5y ago

_-david-_ 5y ago

Calling out whataboutism is just a way to avoid explaining your inconsistent views. Often times people who call out whataboutism haven't really thought out their position.

otterley 5y ago
No, I’m calling it out because it cheapens our discourse. We can, and should, have more substantive conversations here.
- waffleiron 5y ago
  So instead of saying “whataboutism” you can tell us why it’s okay to be hypocritical, or why the situation is sufficiently different. Making statements that are hypocritical cheapens discourse, and we can and should have more substantive conversations here.
  - otterley 5y ago
    You’re putting the burden of the work on the wrong party. It’s the lazy hypocrite hunter who needs to focus that energy making substantive arguments instead. https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/