12 ms·
India explores setting up rupee trade accounts with Russia to soften sanctions
- ffggvv 5y agoevil
- DoItToMe81 5y agoIndia has a still-developing economy which owns billions of dollars in Russian debt. Why should they cut off this source of revenue?
- jacquesm 5y agoBecause they are risking being labelled as assisting Russia and then sanctioned themselves. This is one of those situations where playing clever isn't going to pay off.
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
- jacquesm 5y agohttps://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/IND/Year/2018/TradeFlow/EXPIMP/Partner/by-country https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/IND/Yea...
- sumedh 5y ago> This is one of those situations where playing clever isn't going to pay off. reply So what is your solution, where should India get the fertilisers for its food supply?
- jacquesm 5y agoMake their grievances known in the fora where the sanctions have been decided upon, indicate that they are going to suffer disproportionally, demand to be made good on and indicate that if that does not work that they will have to get creative. These are harsh times, I don't think any of this is fair per se but at the same time once India becomes the conduit to evade the sanctions there will be far larger trouble. Watch this video to get an idea on what the mood currently is: https://twitter.com/NYBackpacker/status/1498328163188977666 https://twitter.com/NYBackpacker/status/1498328163188977666
- ilrwbwrkhv 5y agoThis sort of blatant bullying by the west will only end of bringing the world closer to a thermonuclear event. Let's hope the leaders understand nuance and can handle this delicately.
- sg47 5y agoWhat about bullying and war crimes by Putin?
- jelliclesfarm 5y agohttps://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4 https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4 : Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? Featuring John Mearsheimer (2014) I posted this on HN earlier but it was flagged after I got scolded for being ‘snarky’. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mearsheimer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mearsheimer
- ridiculous_leke 5y agoThey need to be addressed. Just like Saudi, Israeli, US and other war crimes. However, I don't see why should India compromise its food security and safety for that?
- jelliclesfarm 5y agoHarsh times? Are you suggesting that 1.35 billion people should starve during what seems like a never ending pandemic to win brownie points with western bullies for a popularity contest?
- rramadass 5y ago>Because they are risking being labelled as assisting Russia and then sanctioned themselves Won't happen. India is not going the China route of "No Limits ties" with Russia on this. The US/EU know India's needs and some trade will be exempt from sanctions. This happened with Iran and also after the Crimean crisis.
- DLA 5y agoRupee / Ruble. What a terrible currency pair.
- jacquesm 5y agoIndia is setting itself up to be sanctioned themselves if they are not careful with this. There is a whole barrage of social media activity excusing Russia and blaming the West for Russias invasion of Ukraine, none of it makes sense but they are very vocal and numerous.
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
- jacquesm 5y ago> Who do you think will sanction India? Any of the countries that have sanctioned Russia if this is done with the express intent of evading those sanctions. There is plenty of precedent for that. > For putting Indian interests first? There is precedent for that too. > This is the most dumbass comment I have ever heard during this crisis. Time will tell.
- jelliclesfarm 5y agoWhat are these precedents? Pray do tell?
- jacquesm 5y agoFrance and some other countries wanted to do business after Iran got sanctioned by the US government, they were told quite clearly what the consequences would be and backed off. A Latvian bank decided that the American sanctions against a particular group of Russians was an excellent business opportunity. This led to the bank being cut off, the Latvian authorities being told that if they did not control their banks better that all of Latvia would follow and extensive reworking of all of the AMT laws in all of Europe in case some other bank got the same bright idea and to avoid losing the ability to transact with the United States. As a result all of Europe is now required to have an UBO registry for every bank account and every company registered. This sort of thing is taken very seriously. If you want I can dig up the references. Is it fair? No, it isn't fair, but that is the kind of weight the USA can throw around if they feel like it. As an aside: you have now made three snarky comments, I have no idea what prompts you to do this but it is HN unworthy.
- blip54321 5y agoThis would completely change the world perception of India, and it wouldn't bode well with regards to having any sort of international support in their troubles with Pakistan, China, or any other neighbors. The West ought to work with India to help with alternative sourcing of fertilizer.
- jelliclesfarm 5y agoIndia relies on Russian spare parts for our ships and planes. Russia has stood behind India when everyone else abandoned. USA just left behind billions of arms and weapons in Afghanistan that is being sold as parts and transported to Pakistan. With whom there is still border conflict. What do you think India should do?
- oliwarner 5y agoMake their own. Seriously, spare parts is such a silly reason. India has fairly diverse access to primary resources, a growing manufacturing sector, a solid education system. It's time to make your own stuff. Or they can risk it all to prop up a dictator.
- blip54321 5y agoNot very practical. India is among the densest countries in the world. Resources per unit population are pathetically low. Russia is among the least dense. India is 1.4 billion people, and Russia is 140 million -- ten times as many people. Russia is 17 million square kilometers, while India is 3 million. Russia is 5-6 times as large. That's 50-60 times the density. Flow of natural resources out of Russia into India is the natural state of things. I do think India ought to decouple, but it's not that easy. The economic hit will be large. The West should take some of that hit. Without the US and Canada stepping in, India can't decouple from Russia. Both sides ought to know that, and cooperate.
- oliwarner 5y agoRaw density doesn't mean nearly as much as mineral geography and availability. It's because of the number of people that there's a race to the bottom in terms of wages. Skilled labour is almost half the price in India, $7kpa vs $13kpa (old Russian XR). Secondary materials like steel are 80% the price in India. Harvest materials like cotton and rubbers come from India in the first place. I'm not suggesting that the process would be free or fast or painless, but risking sanctions for something that could be in-housed for a relatively small in-house fee, and long term savings seems like a stupid thing to do. India needs an external market more than anything; certainly more than spare parts.
- akmittal 5y agoWell Russia is biggest weapons supplier to India. Also Russia is only consistent country stood with India on all fronts.
- georgecmu 5y agoAnd Ukrainian paramilitaries beating up Indians at checkpoints definitely didn't help their case. https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/politics/indian-students-in-ukraine-recount-ordeal-on-poland-border-many-not-allowed-to-leave-others-beaten-up-8171771.html https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/politics/indian-students-i...
- jacquesm 5y agoThe backstory - from what I've gathered so far after reading way too much in the last hours - is that there is some confusion here. The border is officially closed for men of fighting age, women and children are being led through, and are given transportation. Badly communicated orders are apparently the cause of the males being stopped from crossing, and in the confrontation there were some scuffles. You don't get to demand your rights and confront a bunch of soldiers that may well not speak English and/or have been given strict but ultimately faulty instructions. So this is all probably true but needs a lot more context.
- sumedh 5y ago> confront a bunch of soldiers that may well not speak English and/or have been given strict but ultimately faulty instructions. They cant see the Indian passport and then just allowing them to leave?
- jacquesm 5y agoThey absolutely should have. But this is a pretty tense situation with hundreds of thousands of people trying to get out and many people that are refused exit are getting belligerent. Ukraine has decreed a mandatory immediate conscription and obviously that should only be for Ukrainian citizens. It's a very messy situation at the border, waiting times right now are decreasing a bit because there are no more id checks on the Ukranian side (like there were before) so hopefully the flow of refugees will speed up, the wait earlier today was 60(!, not a typo) hours. This incident likely happened at the Polish border where the lines were longest and there were the most problems, if anybody is still trekking towards the border and they have the choice between Hungary, Romania or Poland I would advise to take the Hungarian or the Romanian route because the lines there are - from what I hear - considerably shorter and there are less problems at those borders.
- rramadass 5y agoThis is the only way out for India given that it is now caught between a rock and a hard place. The mess created by US/EU/Russia/Ukraine is their problem and cannot be allowed to affect the Indian Economy and People. You created your problems and hence solve them yourself. India has always been a responsible international player (has the World forgotten how India supplied it with Covid vaccines without stockpiling for itself which led to it suffering from a horrendous 2nd wave?) and if sanctions are imposed on India, things will go "further south" in the World. India is poised to be the next "manufacturing hub" of the World (with China now playing hardball) and it is to the World's advantage that they do not do anything to hurt India's economy in particular; the "Farming Sector" is sacrosanct (more than 50% labour employment - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India#Sectors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India#Sectors). For those interested, Wikipedia as usual is a good starting point to understand "Indian Economy" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India
- petre 5y ago> India is poised to be the next "manufacturing hub" of the World Not after this or at least not with Western investments.
- jelliclesfarm 5y agoRight. Good luck alienating India with threats and sanctions. I think the west needs India more than India needs western investments.
- petre 5y agoWhat the international community needs right now is for India to act responsibly instead of aiding an aggressor who is currently conducting an unprovoked invasion of a neighbouring country in order to change its democratically elected leadership. Nobody is threatening anyone. It's just how things work out.
- 5y ago
- haltingproblem 5y agoLove the hectoring by the West on the death of India's standing as a global actor, downgrading of India's democracy etc. etc. because of India voting its own interests at the UN. Remember in March, 2020, China occupied (disputed) Indian territory and the two Asian giants fought a brief border war. Which western "liberal" Western power supported India? Right, none, other than urging the two powers to sort it out. The same West for decades has armed Pakistan whose secret services turned Indian cities into regular 9/11 reenactment theaters before the West knew the term 9/11, all with blessings of their CIA and MI6 partners. Bomb blasts in Indian cities would regularly kill hundreds of civilians [3]. They looked the other way even when presented with incontrovertible evidence because Pakistan was key to containing the Soviets. In 1971, the Pakistani Army unleashed a genocide in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) to contain the freedom movement and killed 300,000 mostly Hindu Bangladeshis. Far from stopping it, the US and the UK dispatched Nuclear armed naval strike forces to defend the Pakistani right to commit genocide. All documented in the famous book by American Diplomat Gary Bass, called "The Blood Telegram: Nixon, Kissinger, and a Forgotten Genocide"[1]. He was (famously) fired for protesting American Policy supporting genocide. Just like when the CIA and MI6 got the democratically elected Mosaddegh govt. in Iran deposed in 1954 in favor of the autocratic Shah because the Shah was more suited to their ideologies than the left leaning but democratically elected govt [2]. Indians understand that the West is about liberalism and democracy when it supports their interests and not when it does not. They are just doing what any rational state actor does - using all levers of power and influence to pursue their own interests. Today, most Indians DGAF what "liberal" democracies in the West think about them, because to them the West is neither liberal nor democratic when it comes to people other than their own kind. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Telegram-Kissinger-Forgotten-Genocide/dp/0307744620 https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Telegram-Kissinger-Forgotten-Ge... [2] https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthrew-irans-democracy-in-four-days https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthr... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- copperwater69 5y agoIndia and Russia seem to have a long and amicable history with one another. On youtube I often see Russian men and women as the only foreigners in those Harikrishna groups.
- aaaaaaaaata 5y agoPerhaps enjoying Ruderalis is a commonality?
- sg47 5y agoStupid thing to do. Read the room India
- newusertoday 5y agoindia has 50% of its population that is dependent on agriculture, which due to elctoral democracy means they would vote out any govt. that doesn't looks out after their interests. There is no way india would abide by the sanctions if it would lead to famine like situation in india more people in india would die than in the war between ukraine and russia. Things are complicated and USA/west understands it that is the reason they are not insisting on it.
- ilove196884 5y agoHere we go again. My country still wants to buy foreign weapons. Instead of trying to build something by itself. Sad .
- ridiculous_leke 5y agoProtecting the country has a higher priority than building local weapons. We are already ill-prepared for a two front war. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/not-possible-to-reach-42-fighter-squadrons-in-next-10-15-years-iaf-chief/article36845750.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/not-possible-to-reach...
- gip 5y agoI think that China will pay the price of its burgeoning relationship with Russia at some point. No country wants to be seen as Russia's enabler by the American public. The optics for China is bad: Xi / Putin "no limit" meeting just before the invasion, China may have shared US-provided intel information with the Russian,.. At the moment all the eyes are on Ukraine. But soon the world will start wondering who made that possible. And the American public is already biased toward China. I would think following the same path is a bit risky for India.
- jelliclesfarm 5y agoIndians have to eat.
- gip 5y agoAnd the only solution India has here is to support a dictator who has committed war crimes in Syria and attacked Ukraine? As I said in another thread: I believe that the government and policies of a country is a (very lagging) reflexion of the value of the citizens.
- ridiculous_leke 5y agoYou are not understanding the gravity of the situation. Failures in sourcing fertilizers can create severe food security crisis in the country and will further push farmers who already live on the edge. Farmer suicide is a big issue in India. I would also like to remind you that India is neighbored by two nuclear armed hostile nations who have invaded India in the past. India doesn't work with Russia because of some world domination goals. It works with Russia to ensure its food security and safety.
- throwaway_4ever 5y agoRussia also worked with Nazi Germany before being invaded themselves in WW2. You don't get security by appeasing and helping tyrants. If a Russian-China alliance comes knocking at India, the world might remember your own "not my problem" stance.
- known 5y ago
- noirchen 5y agoSome people really need to see what the other parts of the world are thinking. Why would India take a stance in this war? When the border dispute between China and India broke up Russia still signed a huge military contract with India despite China's request. Was China angry? Probably, but they kept on with a good relationship with Russia. Was India angry about Russia's collaboration with China in many ways? Maybe, but you do not switch sides over this. Was Putin worried that two of his most important allies are having a border dispute? Of course, but what silly superpower would try to determine what their allies should do?
- sonnyg 5y agoAs an Indian, I wish that India would take a stronger stance against the Putin regime. I can understand them trying to stay neutral against a historic ally though, that is the reality of the modern geopolitics. At the very least, I hope they keep out of the way of the countries that are standing with Ukraine today. There is clearly only one right side at this stage of this invasion.