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> That hurts ordinary people yes, but - this is a war. Better an economic hit than being bombed or shot. 40,000+ people died in Venezuela because of sanctions.

> That hurts ordinary people yes, but - this is a war. Better an economic hit than being bombed or shot. 40,000+ people died in Venezuela because of sanctions. [0]: https://cepr.net/press-release/report-finds-us-sanctions-on-venezuela-are-responsible-for-tens-of-thousands-of-deaths/ https://cepr.net/press-release/report-finds-us-sanctions-on-...

firekvz 5y ago
This is an super exaggerated number to attributte only to sactions, our TOTALITARIAN REGIME actions killed those people and the reality is that sanctions just helped them Before the sanctions, (that started in 2015), we had already huge economical problems (and problems of kinds), mainly due the goverment focusing on making one of the greatest corruption acts of all times [1] and focusing on systematically making the venezuelan population poorer, sicker, hungrier and dependant, in order to keep the power and keep stealing money. The thing is, sanctions did absolutelly NOTHING in favour of venezuelans citizens and their freedom, in fact, they made it easier for the Venezuelan totalitarian regime to justificate their acts (forcing hunger, violating human rights [2], etc) and made it stronger in a way that since our country got alienated, we got more support from other totalirian regimes such as China and Rusia. So hurting the ordinary people, as that post say, was just putting an extra nail to the coffin of every venezuelan that died of hunger and sickness.. Was just encouraging more people to fight for freedoom with rocks vs guns and died or got detained [3] [4]... All for nothing, and 6 years later, over 300billions usd stolen later, 2.000.000% hyperinflation later, 7.000.000 venezuelans gone later, over 400 people killed in protest later, over 5,000 political detentions later, the govt is still there and... blocking venezuelans from using stripe, transferwise, etc, is going to help us haha .. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Venezuela [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Venezuela [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_protests_(2014%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_protests_(2014%E2%8... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_protests
- seanclayton 5y ago
  If sanctions kill any amount of people greater than zero makes it a deadly weapon against innocent people and should never be used. Additionally, anyone who uses sanctions should be considered committing an act of terrorism because of their intended effect being killing innocent civilians.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    By that reasoning the west would never have invaded Nazi Germany. Lots of innocent people on both sides died in that invasion, and yet the world is now a better place because of it.
    - ausudhz 5y ago
      Well you won't know without knowing the difference. Just say that we've a different order but for ordinary people probably make no difference. You born after that so did I. Is like saying that the world is better place now because Napoleon invaded Europe. Well, you won't know what would be if he didn't so your argument has no logic (and, in addition you have no idea how life was during that time)
      - seanclayton 5y ago
        His argument also fails with the Ukraine situation. The world may be a better place today because the USSR disbanded, but Ukraine would not be being invaded by Russia today if the USSR never disbanded.
        FredPret 5y ago
        Uhm, no? If the USSR never disbanded, hundreds of millions would still be suffering under a broken system instead of starting on the path to recovery a few decades ago. The breakup was unquestionably a good thing for humanity.
      - FredPret 5y ago
fastball 5y ago
So you want NATO to start bombing Russia, or...?
- seanclayton 5y ago
  I'm firmly anti-war so that means I'm anti-bombing as well as being anti-sanctioning.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    The easiest of all positions to take.
    - seanclayton 5y ago
      It is the best position to take. How many civilian deaths is too much for you, if not zero?
      - progman32 5y ago
        Ignoring regime change for a minute, the two big levers EU/USA seem to have is sanctions and proxy war (by funding and equipping Ukraine). Anything else like bombings are immediately off the table due to nuclear deterrence. Not doing anything seems like the second worst possible outcome as appeasement will only lead to disaster in the inevitable follow up wars. If we take minimizing civilian casualties as the goal, is your position that equipping Ukraine and leaving Russia alone otherwise is the best option?
      - rootusrootus 5y ago
        It is by far the weakest position to take. Your world with no aggressors is fantasy. The only person who had the choice to do nothing was Putin. Our failure to respond to him would result in many more deaths. Incidental casualties from sanctions are unfortunate, but in real life we always have make compromises.
        5y ago

firekvz 5y ago

This is an super exaggerated number to attributte only to sactions, our TOTALITARIAN REGIME actions killed those people and the reality is that sanctions just helped them Before the sanctions, (that started in 2015), we had already huge economical problems (and problems of kinds), mainly due the goverment focusing on making one of the greatest corruption acts of all times [1] and focusing on systematically making the venezuelan population poorer, sicker, hungrier and dependant, in order to keep the power and keep stealing money. The thing is, sanctions did absolutelly NOTHING in favour of venezuelans citizens and their freedom, in fact, they made it easier for the Venezuelan totalitarian regime to justificate their acts (forcing hunger, violating human rights [2], etc) and made it stronger in a way that since our country got alienated, we got more support from other totalirian regimes such as China and Rusia. So hurting the ordinary people, as that post say, was just putting an extra nail to the coffin of every venezuelan that died of hunger and sickness.. Was just encouraging more people to fight for freedoom with rocks vs guns and died or got detained [3] [4]... All for nothing, and 6 years later, over 300billions usd stolen later, 2.000.000% hyperinflation later, 7.000.000 venezuelans gone later, over 400 people killed in protest later, over 5,000 political detentions later, the govt is still there and... blocking venezuelans from using stripe, transferwise, etc, is going to help us haha .. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Venezuela [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Venezuela [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_protests_(2014%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_protests_(2014%E2%8... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_protests

seanclayton 5y ago
If sanctions kill any amount of people greater than zero makes it a deadly weapon against innocent people and should never be used. Additionally, anyone who uses sanctions should be considered committing an act of terrorism because of their intended effect being killing innocent civilians.
- FredPret 5y ago
  By that reasoning the west would never have invaded Nazi Germany. Lots of innocent people on both sides died in that invasion, and yet the world is now a better place because of it.
  - ausudhz 5y ago
    Well you won't know without knowing the difference. Just say that we've a different order but for ordinary people probably make no difference. You born after that so did I. Is like saying that the world is better place now because Napoleon invaded Europe. Well, you won't know what would be if he didn't so your argument has no logic (and, in addition you have no idea how life was during that time)
    - seanclayton 5y ago
      His argument also fails with the Ukraine situation. The world may be a better place today because the USSR disbanded, but Ukraine would not be being invaded by Russia today if the USSR never disbanded.
      - FredPret 5y ago
        Uhm, no? If the USSR never disbanded, hundreds of millions would still be suffering under a broken system instead of starting on the path to recovery a few decades ago. The breakup was unquestionably a good thing for humanity.
    - FredPret 5y ago

fastball 5y ago

So you want NATO to start bombing Russia, or...?

seanclayton 5y ago
I'm firmly anti-war so that means I'm anti-bombing as well as being anti-sanctioning.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  The easiest of all positions to take.
  - seanclayton 5y ago
    It is the best position to take. How many civilian deaths is too much for you, if not zero?
    - progman32 5y ago
      Ignoring regime change for a minute, the two big levers EU/USA seem to have is sanctions and proxy war (by funding and equipping Ukraine). Anything else like bombings are immediately off the table due to nuclear deterrence. Not doing anything seems like the second worst possible outcome as appeasement will only lead to disaster in the inevitable follow up wars. If we take minimizing civilian casualties as the goal, is your position that equipping Ukraine and leaving Russia alone otherwise is the best option?
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      It is by far the weakest position to take. Your world with no aggressors is fantasy. The only person who had the choice to do nothing was Putin. Our failure to respond to him would result in many more deaths. Incidental casualties from sanctions are unfortunate, but in real life we always have make compromises.
      - 5y ago