6 ms·

Isn't it though? Doesn't the ultimate responsibility for government lie with the people themselves? Don't they always have the option of civil disobedience or a

Isn't it though? Doesn't the ultimate responsibility for government lie with the people themselves? Don't they always have the option of civil disobedience or armed rebellion? Aren't they directly responsible for failing to take those options, thereby allowing their government to do harm?

whateveracct 5y ago
ah yes - because Russia has had an exemplary representative democracy since the fall of the soviet union hatred of Russian people has spiked like crazy lately. I've seen calls to deport Russian nationals from the US even.
filoleg 5y ago
> Don't they always have the option of civil disobedience or armed rebellion? Yeah, North Korean people are just too complacent and lazy as well, that's why they fail to utilize the option of civil disobedience or armed rebellion. I wish we had someone go and tell them this one little trick that they were not aware of. /s
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  Yes in fact the North Koreans do have this option. It's just scary and dangerous. People can't hold power without the cooperation of everyone involved.
  - filoleg 5y ago
    I genuinely hope you never have to deal with a situation where you have to deal with mental math of deciding to protest against your government almost certainly ending up not only with your death, but that of your entire family (and that might be not even the worst outcome that you could expect.) >People can't hold power without the cooperation of everyone involved. Following this exact same principle, people cannot overthrow a dictator without the cooperation of everyone involved. And doing so in 2022 (where dictators have access to fairly modern military tech and nukes) is not quite as accessible as it was during early 20th century revolutions. Do what you will with that, but I can completely understand people not willing to "just overthrow the dictator, bro, it is that easy", when doing so would almost certainly end in their own death and the death of their family members (who had no involvement with what you did aside from being your relatives), all while accomplishing exactly nothing in the end. Imo it isn't about "all normal people" overthrowing the dictator, it is about "big" people near the dictator doing so.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Well, yes and no, indeed the 'big' people can do it faster and with less bloodshed. But the 'normal' people can do it too, it will take longer, lots of them will likely die and it will be very hard to organize and get off the ground, especially in a country where the dictator has a ridiculously high approval rating given his performance so far. But it can be done.
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      I hope so too. I also hope that if I were faced with such a situation, I would behave heroically. > "just overthrow the dictator, bro, it is that easy" it's not easy - it's awfully difficult and risky, but it is that simple. Just like fighting Russian soldiers in Ukraine - it's not easy - but it is as simple as taking up arms and fighting. Popular movements to overthrow tyranny (South Africa, India, etc.) have always relied on the masses refusing to cooperate or actively resisting.
achikin 5y ago
That is not always an option. I think even in countries like US armed rebellion would be classified as domestic terrorism and suppressed violently by the government nowadays.
- thegrimmest 5y ago
- djbusby 5y ago
  USA been letting some armed crazies do some wild shit tho.
jacquesm 5y ago
People have zero choice in where they are born, and after that they have when they reach the age of majority (and sometimes earlier) still zero control over where the rest of their family lives and not everybody is made to be an immigrant. I hear this a lot and I always wonder which country would you choose to be born in and why? Because there is something wrong with almost every country, and the causes usually lie well in the past. At the same time people do have agency, but for many the price to pay is too high and so they move to apathy or wilful ignoring of what is happening around them. I've seen this first hand. The peer pressure to keep your head down and to keep your mouth shut lest you get the people near to you in trouble can be enormous and that's the first barrier you need to contend with before you get to deal with the billyclubs and the nightsticks, eventually usually jail and being beaten up, raped or even killed. So have some respect, understand that this is not a simple black-and-white matter and understand that on the far side of the line you do have allies and that their life right now is super hard. Not as hard as the lives in the country that is being invaded so that's where the weight should come down. But hard nonetheless.
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  Yes, no one chooses where they were born. But everyone does choose what to do about the injustice perpetrated by their governments. > but for many the price to pay is too high and so they move to apathy or wilful ignoring of what is happening around them And thereby become complicit. If you witness a rape in the street, and you keep your head down for fear of your own safety, you, by your inaction and cowardice, are allowing the act to perpetuate. These are not qualities worthy of respect. Yes it's scary to risk your own skin, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be the ideal we hold ourselves to. If Ukrainians can take up arms against Putin's tyranny, surely Russians can as well.
  - waffle_maniac 5y ago
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > If Ukrainians can take up arms against Putin's tyranny, surely Russians can as well. I think you missed the bit where Ukraine is forced to do so and Russians have a comparatively comfortable position from which it will be very hard to dislodge them, and which - propaganda wise - might even play into Putin's hand (not that that should be a consideration). FWIW I've lived in a country much like Russia for a while when the iron curtain was still in place. It was a complete eye opener to me how living under such a regime can take the spark of agency out of people. A fair portion of the people there were conscious of this and wanted change and were quite literally willing to risk their lives. But the majority was just chugging along in 'everything is fine' mode as long as they had their jobs, their pension and their food on the table. You always hear 'why don't people rise up against Kim in North Korea'. The answer is simple: they can't unless they are willing to risk it all, only a huge coordinated mob could do that without arms. And absent massive coordination that is next to impossible. But Putin has created a synchronization event, which is why there are such large protests right now. If that flame takes hold it just might make the difference in setting up a sustainable fire and if and when it does I hope that Putin has a pistol nearby so he doesn't end up like Ceaucescu, or in a cell in the Hague for the rest of his life.
WheatM 5y ago

whateveracct 5y ago

ah yes - because Russia has had an exemplary representative democracy since the fall of the soviet union hatred of Russian people has spiked like crazy lately. I've seen calls to deport Russian nationals from the US even.

filoleg 5y ago

> Don't they always have the option of civil disobedience or armed rebellion? Yeah, North Korean people are just too complacent and lazy as well, that's why they fail to utilize the option of civil disobedience or armed rebellion. I wish we had someone go and tell them this one little trick that they were not aware of. /s

thegrimmest 5y ago
Yes in fact the North Koreans do have this option. It's just scary and dangerous. People can't hold power without the cooperation of everyone involved.
- filoleg 5y ago
  I genuinely hope you never have to deal with a situation where you have to deal with mental math of deciding to protest against your government almost certainly ending up not only with your death, but that of your entire family (and that might be not even the worst outcome that you could expect.) >People can't hold power without the cooperation of everyone involved. Following this exact same principle, people cannot overthrow a dictator without the cooperation of everyone involved. And doing so in 2022 (where dictators have access to fairly modern military tech and nukes) is not quite as accessible as it was during early 20th century revolutions. Do what you will with that, but I can completely understand people not willing to "just overthrow the dictator, bro, it is that easy", when doing so would almost certainly end in their own death and the death of their family members (who had no involvement with what you did aside from being your relatives), all while accomplishing exactly nothing in the end. Imo it isn't about "all normal people" overthrowing the dictator, it is about "big" people near the dictator doing so.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Well, yes and no, indeed the 'big' people can do it faster and with less bloodshed. But the 'normal' people can do it too, it will take longer, lots of them will likely die and it will be very hard to organize and get off the ground, especially in a country where the dictator has a ridiculously high approval rating given his performance so far. But it can be done.
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    I hope so too. I also hope that if I were faced with such a situation, I would behave heroically. > "just overthrow the dictator, bro, it is that easy" it's not easy - it's awfully difficult and risky, but it is that simple. Just like fighting Russian soldiers in Ukraine - it's not easy - but it is as simple as taking up arms and fighting. Popular movements to overthrow tyranny (South Africa, India, etc.) have always relied on the masses refusing to cooperate or actively resisting.

achikin 5y ago

That is not always an option. I think even in countries like US armed rebellion would be classified as domestic terrorism and suppressed violently by the government nowadays.

thegrimmest 5y ago
djbusby 5y ago
USA been letting some armed crazies do some wild shit tho.

jacquesm 5y ago

People have zero choice in where they are born, and after that they have when they reach the age of majority (and sometimes earlier) still zero control over where the rest of their family lives and not everybody is made to be an immigrant. I hear this a lot and I always wonder which country would you choose to be born in and why? Because there is something wrong with almost every country, and the causes usually lie well in the past. At the same time people do have agency, but for many the price to pay is too high and so they move to apathy or wilful ignoring of what is happening around them. I've seen this first hand. The peer pressure to keep your head down and to keep your mouth shut lest you get the people near to you in trouble can be enormous and that's the first barrier you need to contend with before you get to deal with the billyclubs and the nightsticks, eventually usually jail and being beaten up, raped or even killed. So have some respect, understand that this is not a simple black-and-white matter and understand that on the far side of the line you do have allies and that their life right now is super hard. Not as hard as the lives in the country that is being invaded so that's where the weight should come down. But hard nonetheless.

thegrimmest 5y ago
Yes, no one chooses where they were born. But everyone does choose what to do about the injustice perpetrated by their governments. > but for many the price to pay is too high and so they move to apathy or wilful ignoring of what is happening around them And thereby become complicit. If you witness a rape in the street, and you keep your head down for fear of your own safety, you, by your inaction and cowardice, are allowing the act to perpetuate. These are not qualities worthy of respect. Yes it's scary to risk your own skin, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be the ideal we hold ourselves to. If Ukrainians can take up arms against Putin's tyranny, surely Russians can as well.
- waffle_maniac 5y ago
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > If Ukrainians can take up arms against Putin's tyranny, surely Russians can as well. I think you missed the bit where Ukraine is forced to do so and Russians have a comparatively comfortable position from which it will be very hard to dislodge them, and which - propaganda wise - might even play into Putin's hand (not that that should be a consideration). FWIW I've lived in a country much like Russia for a while when the iron curtain was still in place. It was a complete eye opener to me how living under such a regime can take the spark of agency out of people. A fair portion of the people there were conscious of this and wanted change and were quite literally willing to risk their lives. But the majority was just chugging along in 'everything is fine' mode as long as they had their jobs, their pension and their food on the table. You always hear 'why don't people rise up against Kim in North Korea'. The answer is simple: they can't unless they are willing to risk it all, only a huge coordinated mob could do that without arms. And absent massive coordination that is next to impossible. But Putin has created a synchronization event, which is why there are such large protests right now. If that flame takes hold it just might make the difference in setting up a sustainable fire and if and when it does I hope that Putin has a pistol nearby so he doesn't end up like Ceaucescu, or in a cell in the Hague for the rest of his life.

WheatM 5y ago