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He might be in the minority here, but he's clearly not in the minority outside of this site. There's a reason why folks still expect certain types of dress for

He might be in the minority here, but he's clearly not in the minority outside of this site. There's a reason why folks still expect certain types of dress for churches, interviews, nice restaurants, etc. When you put on a nice suit to go attend a friend's wedding, you're doing that as much as a sign of respect for him and the other guests as any other reason. The same is true, although perhaps not as dramatically, in every day life. If I'm going out to dinner with my girlfriend, and I dress like crap, yeah, I'd argue that's frankly disrespectful to her. It sends the message that I don't care what she thinks, or I don't think it matters. I'd dress up on a first date when I hardly know her... to not do it now, years later, would send the message that I don't care as much as I did that first day.

kstenerud 15y ago
The parent post explicitly states that he's talking about "dressing well" vs "dressing formally" (weddings, etc). Also, he's not talking about dressing to the appropriate level to the social task at hand; he's talking about dressing to the appropriate level, but "poorly". That's a lot like a gym-goer looking down his nose at anyone whose abs aren't as ripped as his. People as superficial as that don't even get the time of day from me, let alone respect.
- tomkarlo 15y ago
  He's not saying that anyone has to do what he suggests. He's suggesting that there might be benefits to folks being a little more studied about what they wear and how it fits, and listing a few pointers on how someone who is interested might go about exploring that. He doesn't make any judgement (that I see) about people who choose to ignore his advice. (About the closest he comes is saying that "the days of t-shirts and hoodies are over.) He's not coming to rip off your t-shirt and put a tie around your neck.
  - kstenerud 15y ago
    "I find poorly dressed people almost as off-putting as catching a scent of someone who didn't put deodorant on seeing too much of someone who doesn't have the decency to wear a belt." Sounds pretty judgmental to me.
    - tomkarlo 15y ago
      Sorry - I was talking about the OP, you were talking about that commenter. That said, in your view is there simply no relevant standard for personal maintenance? Is everything relative? If I show up to your wedding in a t-shirt and ripped jeans, is that ok as long as I don't mean any disrespect? The unfortunate fact is that you don't have to intend to be disrespectful in order to be disrespectful or inconsiderate. It's generally the reverse - one ends up being disrespectful, offensive or inconsiderate because they didn't adequately consider the sensitivities of other parties. It's about cultural norms. If you're in a society where folks expect you to wear deodorant, and you don't, you're going to have to be willing to be judged for it negatively, right or wrong. Similarly, if you dress like you don't care, don't be annoyed if some folks think you don't care. That's your right, but I'd argue it's also his right to judge you for it.
      - kstenerud 15y ago
        Actually, I was keeping in kind with the parent post (i.e. focusing not on the level of dress, but simply how well someone dresses within the socially appropriate level). Some people are better dressers than others. Getting offended simply because someone's shirt "clashes" with their pants is as pathetic as ripping on someone because they can't do math in their head.
        omgsean 15y ago
        >Getting offended simply because someone's shirt "clashes" with their pants I don't think that's what he's talking about. I think he means things like holes, rips, stains, or a complete disregard for fit. If you make developer money and you wear clothes that fit that description that's a choice you're making. If you wear a striped shirt with striped pants because you don't know how to match patterns nobody is going to judge you, because at least you're trying. It would be pathetic to rip on someone because they can't do math in their head, but it wouldn't be pathetic to rip on someone who refuses to try because they think they're too good for math.
        tomkarlo 15y ago
        The ability to dress "well" isn't some kind of innate talent that can't be learned. (This is /especially/ true for guys, given how little men's fashion changes over the years compared to women's.) Pretending that it's some kind of secret power is just shirking responsibility in the same way that some people say "I'm just not good at math" and then don't bother to try learning. We're not talking about high fashion here, we're talking about neat clothes that fit well. As far as fit, there are trained professionals who can help: tailors. Nor is it expensive if you have a little knowledge. Having a shirt fixed or pants hemmed costs about $10. A decent button down shirt from a place like Land End can cost as little as $15. Great leather shoes (that will last a decade) can be found on eBay for $100-$150. I've known folks who were totally color blind and had not problem with dressing well - they just had a thoughtful system and wardrobe that allowed them to pick things without having to worry about the color. This kind of basic knowledge is just like knowing the rules of the road so you're a better driver. It's not complex, it's highly useful and it's readily available. The OP was trying to provide some pointers for folks who want to learn.

kstenerud 15y ago

The parent post explicitly states that he's talking about "dressing well" vs "dressing formally" (weddings, etc). Also, he's not talking about dressing to the appropriate level to the social task at hand; he's talking about dressing to the appropriate level, but "poorly". That's a lot like a gym-goer looking down his nose at anyone whose abs aren't as ripped as his. People as superficial as that don't even get the time of day from me, let alone respect.

tomkarlo 15y ago
He's not saying that anyone has to do what he suggests. He's suggesting that there might be benefits to folks being a little more studied about what they wear and how it fits, and listing a few pointers on how someone who is interested might go about exploring that. He doesn't make any judgement (that I see) about people who choose to ignore his advice. (About the closest he comes is saying that "the days of t-shirts and hoodies are over.) He's not coming to rip off your t-shirt and put a tie around your neck.
- kstenerud 15y ago
  "I find poorly dressed people almost as off-putting as catching a scent of someone who didn't put deodorant on seeing too much of someone who doesn't have the decency to wear a belt." Sounds pretty judgmental to me.
  - tomkarlo 15y ago
    Sorry - I was talking about the OP, you were talking about that commenter. That said, in your view is there simply no relevant standard for personal maintenance? Is everything relative? If I show up to your wedding in a t-shirt and ripped jeans, is that ok as long as I don't mean any disrespect? The unfortunate fact is that you don't have to intend to be disrespectful in order to be disrespectful or inconsiderate. It's generally the reverse - one ends up being disrespectful, offensive or inconsiderate because they didn't adequately consider the sensitivities of other parties. It's about cultural norms. If you're in a society where folks expect you to wear deodorant, and you don't, you're going to have to be willing to be judged for it negatively, right or wrong. Similarly, if you dress like you don't care, don't be annoyed if some folks think you don't care. That's your right, but I'd argue it's also his right to judge you for it.
    - kstenerud 15y ago
      Actually, I was keeping in kind with the parent post (i.e. focusing not on the level of dress, but simply how well someone dresses within the socially appropriate level). Some people are better dressers than others. Getting offended simply because someone's shirt "clashes" with their pants is as pathetic as ripping on someone because they can't do math in their head.
      - omgsean 15y ago
        >Getting offended simply because someone's shirt "clashes" with their pants I don't think that's what he's talking about. I think he means things like holes, rips, stains, or a complete disregard for fit. If you make developer money and you wear clothes that fit that description that's a choice you're making. If you wear a striped shirt with striped pants because you don't know how to match patterns nobody is going to judge you, because at least you're trying. It would be pathetic to rip on someone because they can't do math in their head, but it wouldn't be pathetic to rip on someone who refuses to try because they think they're too good for math.
      - tomkarlo 15y ago
        The ability to dress "well" isn't some kind of innate talent that can't be learned. (This is /especially/ true for guys, given how little men's fashion changes over the years compared to women's.) Pretending that it's some kind of secret power is just shirking responsibility in the same way that some people say "I'm just not good at math" and then don't bother to try learning. We're not talking about high fashion here, we're talking about neat clothes that fit well. As far as fit, there are trained professionals who can help: tailors. Nor is it expensive if you have a little knowledge. Having a shirt fixed or pants hemmed costs about $10. A decent button down shirt from a place like Land End can cost as little as $15. Great leather shoes (that will last a decade) can be found on eBay for $100-$150. I've known folks who were totally color blind and had not problem with dressing well - they just had a thoughtful system and wardrobe that allowed them to pick things without having to worry about the color. This kind of basic knowledge is just like knowing the rules of the road so you're a better driver. It's not complex, it's highly useful and it's readily available. The OP was trying to provide some pointers for folks who want to learn.