5 ms·

> Running into things like this is a visceral reminder that even "normal" things—normal food, normal code—can just be better. A lot. Right. I am away from home

> Running into things like this is a visceral reminder that even "normal" things—normal food, normal code—can just be better. A lot. Right. I am away from home at the moment, staying at a house which doesn't have all the things I need. Like, there are only tiny frying pans, there aren't any spices/condiments/salt etc. So I have been buying the minimal things I need to cook food I like, and working with what is there. I took a tin of cheap, mass-produced fish out of the cupboard that I did not buy and was probably a mistaken purchase (everything in that cupboard needs to be used up), and on the basis that wasting food is a crime, I cooked it and added the simplest things alongside; some broccoli and a baguette. The meal I ate is one of the best things I have ever eaten, and it has improved my relationship with food, overnight. On that basis, if I go to an expensive restaurant and do not get food that is qualitatively better and not just different and in its own category, then I am being taken for a fool. So I am glad to hear that your Chez Panisse experience was what it was.

gowld 5y ago
> On that basis, if I go to an expensive restaurant and do not get food that is qualitatively better and not just different and in its own category, then I am being taken for a fool. Why? Does novelty have no value for you? The Michelin Star restaurant isn't just "different", it's a difference that is hard to find. Michelin Star ratings: 1 Star: Worth a stop when you are driving. 2 Star: Worth a detour when you are driving. 3 Star: Worth a dedicated trip. Price is, as with everything, supply vs demand.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > Why? > Does novelty have no value for you? Absurd. What kind of "novelty" is there for _you_ in eating food at an expensive restaurant that is not qualitatively better than that which you can buy more cheaply? That isn't novelty, it's foolishness. I don't need Michelin star ratings explained to me, I know all about them. I also know that people make dumb decisions when their aspirations, jealousies and FOMO are tickled.
  - cercatrova 5y ago
    Better is hard to define, as the root parent of this thread says, as you cannot directly compare, say, BBQ, to a molecular gastronomy meal; they are simply in different classes, "better" cannot be compared. That being said, if you like the food, then eat it, and if not, don't, regardless of whether it's Michelin or not.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      Better is subjective and of course a person can compare two different types of restaurants. You do it every time you go out to determine where you want to go. You compare the two based on value, taste, frequency, and atmosphere. All subjective of course, but it's a personal preference you can compare. If the food was awful, the atmosphere or "novelty" was uncomfortable/unenjoyable/mediocre, the price was high in option A, you will feel cheated and would have rather had gone to option B. That experience will influence future decisions when comparing and deciding on a place.
  - oxfeed65261 5y ago
    Perhaps a useful analogy would be a roller coaster vs. a limousine. The limousine is comfortable. The roller coaster is thrilling.
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      OK but I am not paying extra money for a meal where part of the experience is that some of the food is terrible value and some is amazing, or to eat at a place where (knowing a little of rollercoaster physics) it has actually been carefully planned that way to maximise the thrill and discomfort. That would be like an ARFID theme park. [0] Which now I think of it is a good description of this: https://everywhereist.com/2021/12/bros-restaurant-lecce-we-eat-at-the-worst-michelin-starred-restaurant-ever/ https://everywhereist.com/2021/12/bros-restaurant-lecce-we-e... Honestly, some of the justifications for the poor value proposition and past poor experiences of "fine dining" really make me chuckle. Food shouldn't be an exam, an IQ test, or a show of sophistication or class. Putting up with being misled by people selling you sophistication but delivering you average food is silly, and yet it happens a lot. [0] I have ARFID, pretty much totally ignorable now but hell when I was a child. Oh and for the people who will get snippy and downvote me because I didn't give them a direct link to the wikipedia entry for the acronym they just aren't informed enough to have heard of before, fine, here's your link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant/restrictive_food_intake_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant/restrictive_food_inta...
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  > Does novelty have no value for you? I'm not in the camp of "novelty has no value" but also not in the camp of "novelty automatically makes things better or worthwhile" The only point of novelty is to discover new things I enjoy. Eating at a fine dining restaurant and coming away with "that wasn't very good but it sure was novel" would be disappointing, and I'd probably think I had wasted my time and money on it compared to going to my favorite restaurant and eating my favorite meal there.
bduerst 5y ago
This is probably (partially) attributable to the IKEA-effect [1], where people perceive better quality in the things that they partially create. Also one of the joys of cooking is that you are experiencing the immediate fruits your own labor. There's no prolonged scrum meetings, release cycles, delayed launches, etc. It such a simple feedback loop that it's a great way to give yourself short-term gratification. I've found even food prep is cathartic to a degree. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > This is probably (partially) attributable to the IKEA-effect [1], where people perceive better quality in the things that they partially create. Or it just tasted nice ;-)

gowld 5y ago

> On that basis, if I go to an expensive restaurant and do not get food that is qualitatively better and not just different and in its own category, then I am being taken for a fool. Why? Does novelty have no value for you? The Michelin Star restaurant isn't just "different", it's a difference that is hard to find. Michelin Star ratings: 1 Star: Worth a stop when you are driving. 2 Star: Worth a detour when you are driving. 3 Star: Worth a dedicated trip. Price is, as with everything, supply vs demand.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> Why? > Does novelty have no value for you? Absurd. What kind of "novelty" is there for _you_ in eating food at an expensive restaurant that is not qualitatively better than that which you can buy more cheaply? That isn't novelty, it's foolishness. I don't need Michelin star ratings explained to me, I know all about them. I also know that people make dumb decisions when their aspirations, jealousies and FOMO are tickled.
- cercatrova 5y ago
  Better is hard to define, as the root parent of this thread says, as you cannot directly compare, say, BBQ, to a molecular gastronomy meal; they are simply in different classes, "better" cannot be compared. That being said, if you like the food, then eat it, and if not, don't, regardless of whether it's Michelin or not.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    Better is subjective and of course a person can compare two different types of restaurants. You do it every time you go out to determine where you want to go. You compare the two based on value, taste, frequency, and atmosphere. All subjective of course, but it's a personal preference you can compare. If the food was awful, the atmosphere or "novelty" was uncomfortable/unenjoyable/mediocre, the price was high in option A, you will feel cheated and would have rather had gone to option B. That experience will influence future decisions when comparing and deciding on a place.
- oxfeed65261 5y ago
  Perhaps a useful analogy would be a roller coaster vs. a limousine. The limousine is comfortable. The roller coaster is thrilling.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    OK but I am not paying extra money for a meal where part of the experience is that some of the food is terrible value and some is amazing, or to eat at a place where (knowing a little of rollercoaster physics) it has actually been carefully planned that way to maximise the thrill and discomfort. That would be like an ARFID theme park. [0] Which now I think of it is a good description of this: https://everywhereist.com/2021/12/bros-restaurant-lecce-we-eat-at-the-worst-michelin-starred-restaurant-ever/ https://everywhereist.com/2021/12/bros-restaurant-lecce-we-e... Honestly, some of the justifications for the poor value proposition and past poor experiences of "fine dining" really make me chuckle. Food shouldn't be an exam, an IQ test, or a show of sophistication or class. Putting up with being misled by people selling you sophistication but delivering you average food is silly, and yet it happens a lot. [0] I have ARFID, pretty much totally ignorable now but hell when I was a child. Oh and for the people who will get snippy and downvote me because I didn't give them a direct link to the wikipedia entry for the acronym they just aren't informed enough to have heard of before, fine, here's your link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant/restrictive_food_intake_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant/restrictive_food_inta...
bluefirebrand 5y ago
> Does novelty have no value for you? I'm not in the camp of "novelty has no value" but also not in the camp of "novelty automatically makes things better or worthwhile" The only point of novelty is to discover new things I enjoy. Eating at a fine dining restaurant and coming away with "that wasn't very good but it sure was novel" would be disappointing, and I'd probably think I had wasted my time and money on it compared to going to my favorite restaurant and eating my favorite meal there.

bduerst 5y ago

This is probably (partially) attributable to the IKEA-effect [1], where people perceive better quality in the things that they partially create. Also one of the joys of cooking is that you are experiencing the immediate fruits your own labor. There's no prolonged scrum meetings, release cycles, delayed launches, etc. It such a simple feedback loop that it's a great way to give yourself short-term gratification. I've found even food prep is cathartic to a degree. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> This is probably (partially) attributable to the IKEA-effect [1], where people perceive better quality in the things that they partially create. Or it just tasted nice ;-)