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Ask HN: I have received a Cease And Desist letter. What to do?

• brudgers 5y ago
  Ask yourself, is this a hill worth dying on? If yes, hire a lawyer. If no, it is an opportunity to refine your message by deletion and focus on making your project better by something other than comparison. Good luck.
  • allynjalford 5y ago
    great answer
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    Thank you for your advice. Based on your feedback and other comments I have decided to take the article offline. I will replace it at a later date with a neutral comparison table, which I still think can be of service to my website visitors.
• qqq_91 5y ago
  Doing marketing this way is immoral in my opinion. I would even say that such actions can be expected from the Russians. When you compare products, do it properly. as far as I know, Handsontable releases a new version every now and then and corrects bugs, including performance.
• robbiejs 5y ago
  Hi, I am Robbert, creator of JavaScript Excel-like data table library DataGridXL (https://datagridxl.com https://datagridxl.com). I made this component since similar products are quite slow & unreliable. I just released version 2 of the product and decided to add a few "Comparison Pages" to my website, to show visitors why my product is better (when it comes to performance & reliability). Now, the most well known JavaScript Excel-like data table libary has sent me a Cease And Desist Letter by email (twice) demanding that I take this Compare page (https://www.datagridxl.com/features/compare-handsontable https://www.datagridxl.com/features/compare-handsontable) offline. I am not much of a legal rights expert, but so far I have ignored it. I can publish whatever I want, right? Freedom of speech? So far I have just laughed it off and considered it very childish for a 20 person company to try to pressure me into taking this page offline. However, I could use the advice of the Hacker News community. What should I do here? Ignore or take action?
  • dont__panic 5y ago
    (sorry if this is off topic, but I couldn't resist asking) What platform are you using for your documentation? It looks very clean and page loads are pretty darn fast.
    • robbiejs 5y ago
      Thanks! The site is built from scratch using old school PHP. There is no fancy CMS or docs generator, everything is hand crafted in Sublime Text and uploaded by FTP. I know, I know! The product itself is state of the art ES6 ;-) For myself, I like things old school.
• PaulHoule 5y ago
  Every time somebody posts something like this the advice tends to be "talk to a lawyer". There are all sorts of variables. For instance, if an entity is based in the UK they can sue under libel laws that most people think are unreasonable. I think those guys are in Poland so maybe they aren't so dangerous. Personally I hate the meme image, I think it's in poor taste and you should get rid of it.
  • p49k 5y ago
    I would also remove the language that implies your product is better because it's built in the Netherlands rather than Poland - it seems quite bigoted. It's not directly stated, but literally every other "fact" about your product versus the other is about how yours is better, so it comes off as if that statement follows the rest. There are also some claims that seem dangerous such as "Choose Handsontable and you're guaranteed to slow down your web app and upset your users" - even without being a lawyer, you could just take a moment to think of how often you see claims like this made about competitors by large companies (never) and it should be clear that there's probably a good reason why.
    • PaulHoule 5y ago
      Yeah that "Choose..." statement is certainly a stretch. I am sure there are many people with javascript applications where saving 2 MB on a grid control is the least of the performance and reliability problems they have. For that matter I have a high opinion of many software firms in Poland (CD Projekt, some outsourcers.) If the OP kept to things that were factual they'd be better off.
      • robbiejs 5y ago
        Thank you Paul, I have to agree. I went a little wild with the language, I will work on the tone of voice in the article and make it more neutral. Thanks!
    • Beltalowda 5y ago
      > I would also remove the language that implies your product is better because it's built in the Netherlands rather than Poland - it seems quite bigoted. I read it as simply an introduction rather than an implication. I think you're reading far too much in to this. That said, personally I'd never slag off any competition, no matter how bad I think their product is. Focus on your own strengths rather than your competitor's weaknesses; if it's really that much better, people will figure it out for themselves. I'm not wildly impressed by this page overall.
• nobody9999 5y ago
  >What should I do here? Ignore or take action? Any advice you receive here should contain a variation one of the following disclaimers: 1. I am not a lawyer. YMMV. 2. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer and this is not legal advice. As such, while asking here might net some useful information, you're better off understanding the law within your jurisdiction (based on the site linked, that's the Netherlands, yes?) as it relates to whatever your competitor is complaining about. Since you link to what appears to be visuals from your competitor's app, there may be copyright issues and/or issues with using their platform in ways that are incompatible with their licence/TOS. Which could open you up to civil liability. N.B.: I am not a lawyer. The best advice I can give you is consult an attorney. One who will say: "I am a lawyer. In fact, I am your lawyer and this is legal advice." That's probably not what you wanted to hear and I'm just some rando on the intertubes, but that's my take. YMMV.
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    The comments I received on this thread might not all come from law experts, but I mainly have received feedback about the tone of voice of the article and how it's not helpful and even comes across as childish, which I see now. Based on that feedback I am taking the article offline and will rewrite it/rethink my "marketing" approach. I believe you're right about them not being happy with me using their logo. I am still very much a designer that is looking to make things pretty. Will take the logos off the website, thanks for your advice!
    • nobody9999 5y ago
      >Based on that feedback I am taking the article offline and will rewrite it/rethink my "marketing" approach. I hope that satisfies your competitor. I'm not familiar with NL or PL law, but I'm sure there are ways to present your comparison that won't run afoul of them. >I believe you're right about them not being happy with me using their logo. I am still very much a designer that is looking to make things pretty. Will take the logos off the website, thanks for your advice! Good luck. I hope you find success with your product!
      • 5y ago
• slater 5y ago
  Get a lawyer.
• futhey 5y ago
  Our company years ago, when they were even tinier, supported HandsOnTable as one of their first commercial customers, in a big way. Behavior like this will definitely color my decision-making process to use their products in the future. Thanks for sharing.
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    Not sure if I understand you correctly. Do you mean that you don't like big companies using scare tactics and that you lose your respect for them?
• retrac 5y ago
  I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a Dutch commercial lawyer. This is just general info. > I can publish whatever I want, right? Freedom of speech? Not exactly. For a clear cut example, something like "Competitor X has a rootkit which will upload all your nudes to Facebook" is libel (unless they really do that) and you'd lose that case in almost any jurisdiction. Even far less blatant statements like "is slow" or "is less secure" can run afoul there. Libel laws vary tremendously by jurisdiction. There's a separate issue also of advertising standards; many EU nations, including I believe .nl have laws requiring fair and honest presentation of the product and competitors. And they can be pretty strict. There have been countless court cases and tribunal rulings on "the fastest network" or "fewer dropped calls" being dishonest advertising with mobile service providers, for example. Often boils down to: can you prove the claim?
  • glandium 5y ago
    > For a clear cut example, something like "Competitor X has a rootkit which will upload all your nudes to Facebook" is libel (unless they really do that) and you'd lose that case in almost any jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions it can be libel or something legally similar, even if they really do that. In the one case I know (Japan), things change, though, after the justice system has issued a sentence.
    • sebastien_b 5y ago
      > In some jurisdictions it can be libel or something legally similar, even if they really do that The only sensible time I would see this being legitimate is if it was something secret/confidential (but still legal) being made public (and viewed as being revealed maliciously, depending on content/context); I doubt it would be considered libellous however (but if you have a reference, I'd like to read up on it).
      • glandium 5y ago
        One example that comes to mind is how the Japanese wikipedia page for Iizuka Kozo wouldn't put a single reference to the Higashi-Ikebukuro runaway car accident he caused (not even a link to the separate wikipedia page for it) until after he was sentenced, because the wikipedia rules are such as to avoid these legal problems. His name wasn't even mentioned on the runaway car accident page either. http://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp/law/detail_main?re=&vm=02&id=1960 http://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp/law/detail_main?re=&... Chapter XXXIV Crimes against Reputation (Defamation) Article 230 (1) A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished by imprisonment with or without work for not more than 3 years or a fine of not more than 500,000 yen. (2) A person who defames a dead person shall not be punished unless such defamation is based on a falsehood.
• JoeyBananas 5y ago
  I know a product that should be using DataGridXL, but isn't. It's frustrating to use.
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    That's exactly why I started DataGridXL! What is the product name?
• BizarroLand 5y ago
  I am not a lawyer but smack talking your competitor is a good way to get sued. I would start with removing anything that talks bad about Handsontable. Before: "Fun fact: Handsontable's poor performance and reliability was the reason for our CEO to start building DataGridXL!" "Choose Handsontable and you're guaranteed to slow down your web app and upset your users. But hey, your app might just work on IE6." "Handsontable on the other hand presents a barebone grid which is a little surprising for 2.2MB of code." <= Specifically the word "barebone", which could be considered derogatory. "Something's definitely off here." "Yes, but weird" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ After: "Fun fact: Our CEO built DataGridXL because he wanted more performance and higher reliability than he could find on the market, and now he wants to share it with you." "We believe our product is superior to our competitors and offers better results to your users" "Handsontable on the other hand shows a basic grid which is a little surprising for 2.2MB of code." " " <= just remove this line Change the table entry to say, "Modern Undo and Redo" and change the grid result to "No" Finally I would talk to a lawyer either before or after making changes like this to make sure that you're in the clear.
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    Thank you for your feedback! Are you a copywriter? I really like how you rewrote all of the original sentences. Based on your comments and other feedback I have received in this thread I have decided to take the page offline and put back a simple comparison table page later. I might re-introduce the article text after I have rewritten it in a more neutral tone of voice, like in your examples. Thank you!
    • BizarroLand 5y ago
      I am not a copywriter but I've worked doing a lot of websites for larger companies and this is the kind of spiel that they would use to limit their liability when discussing their products. Present your product in the best possible light without lying about it. If there are stark measurable differences between you and a competitor and you can record and validate them, (i.e., DataGridXL can parse this common operation on 100,000 table rows in X seconds, which is Y% faster than HandsonTable on the same machine!), that is perfectly fine. (Use OBS Studio to video the results and save it, and should they take you to court you can use it to prove that you did not lie one Jot or one Iota.) It's only Libel if it is false, so if you know it is not false and can prove it, then you're in the clear, but smack talk can and will get you smacked down in court. Also, it might be a good idea to also compare your software to a third product if you can find one that you also outclass. That shows a touch of impartiality so that it doesn't read as if you're picking on HandsonTable. If not, that's ok, but it's an idea worth considering.
• notmyfuture 5y ago
  I know this isn't your actual question, but I think you should consider if the tone of your article represents the company you're trying to build. To me it reads as informal (comparison table "yes but weird), jokey (meme at top) & one-sided (can't find one point you lose at). It feels like poking at your competitor, not like an attempt at a neutral comparison. Now they're poking back via lawyers. Maybe you do need a lawyer in this instance, maybe not, but if you're committed to this style when dealing with competitors you'll likely need a lawyer in the future.
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    Thank you for comments and for reading the article. I appreciate it very much! Based on your feedback and other comments in this thread, I have realized that the jokey/cocky tone of voice (including the article's images) is damaging what I am trying to build, more than it helps what I am trying to build/communicate. I am taking the article offline and will later replace it with a more mature no-nonsense comparison table.
    • notmyfuture 5y ago
      Good on you for considering other perspectives, and acting. Many people only come to reinforce their existing ideas. FWIW your product itself looks good, if I'm ever in the market for a Datagrid type component, I'll consider it.
      • robbiejs 5y ago
        Thank you, appreciate it!
• jackvalentine 5y ago
  It should be forbidden to ask these questions without posting the text of the C&D for us to read.
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    The next time they send me one I will.
• sebastien_b 5y ago
  I'm not going to rehash all the other advice already on here about IANAL YMMV yadayada but I'll offer a few observations: - using a meme does not scream "professionalism" to me; kinda borders on childish in my view - the whole "made in Country A vs. Country B.": I generally do not care, but seeing this leaves a bad taste in my mouth. - "created in 2020s vs. when IE6 was still a thing": to me, older stuff means it's been time tested; the tone makes it sound like cockiness about the superiority of your product that has yet to be proven - You include a comparison chart on features that both do/do not support, which is good; but the wording on some rows is questionable, namely "Scrolling": "Great vs. Bad" is not at all objective. Additionally, I will decide what I prefer; a better description would be "Row/column-based vs. Smooth" (and for the record, I prefer Handsontable's smooth scroll) - Pointless other jabs: "Choose Handsontable and you're guaranteed to slow down your web app and upset your users." Is this a money-back guarantee you offer? This alone is likely what got you that letter (and to be frank, I think you're lucky that's all you've gotten so far). - "Freedom of speech" only applies to government censorship; stuff like libel/slander still applies for private entities - your "Freedom [to publish whatever I want (about those guys)]" is equal to their "Freedom to sue you on whatever you wrote about them". > What should I do here? Ignore or take action? Take action--based on the feedback given to you here (ie. you'd be foolish to take action against them).
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    Thank you very much for your valid points and taking the time to read through the article. One thing I'd like to mention; I wrote about country A & B as background info, not trying to say that country A is somehow better than country B. (I think it's quite cool that this well known digital product comes from Europe/Poland, and is not some VC Silicon Valley thing.) But I do understand that this might come off as some kind of diss, because of the other things that I am writing about the product. I agree that the article and the way that it is written is childish (and disrespectful). Thank you for pointing that out. I was inspired by the chapter "Pick a Fight" from Basecamp's Getting Real book (https://basecamp.com/gettingreal/02.5-have-an-enemy https://basecamp.com/gettingreal/02.5-have-an-enemy), but I should have picked a more mature tone of voice. My product does not really need this "cocky" comparison article, and I see now that it hurts my own offering more than it helps it. Based on your feedback and the other comments that I have received in this thread, I have decided to take the article offline. I will modify it and re-upload it as a fair no-nonsense comparison table. (I was/am not planning to take any action against them.) One more time, thank you for your feedback. It really helps.
• oldgregg 5y ago
  Great marketing keep it up :) ignore all the nerds on here staying stop being mean. I would tell him that the comparison page is staying up, but if you want to request SPECIFIC changes on anything defamatory then invite him to enumerate his concerns. The valid concerns you genuinely change-- then post your email exchange for more marketing clout :D
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    Ha! Thanks! Good to hear from the other side. I believe that in their Cease and Desist Letter they did write about 5 or 6 specific things that they believed were not fair, and they wanted to have changed. (That letter was a response to the previous version of this comparison article.) Something like: "In the article, you say that our product is slow and yours is fast, but it's not fair as your product displays only 50 cells in its viewport and our product 100 cells." (... and 4 or 5 other bullet points commenting on things that they did not agree with) This is the first time I have ever received such a letter and at first I thought it was some kind of joke. And perhaps in a way it is. For a moment I did think like you: I am going to make this comparison page even worse for them by adding disclaimers to the article like: "HoT requested us to modify this example so that their product is a little less slow..." But I never did and I am glad I did not. But I am happy that you appreciate this marketing effort ;-)
• sircastor 5y ago
  I think the meme is funny, and fun marketing. As others have mentioned, the answer is to talk to a lawyer. You’re running a business, and that means you have money to lose. I’m not lawyer. Cease and desist is at the very least a trial balloon to see how you’ll react. You should absolutely not ignore it and hope it goes away.
  • robbiejs 5y ago
    Thanks for your feedback! I think the meme is pretty funny too, but I have received quite a few comments on this thread of people that dislike it, as it is "not professional". I was a little bored with spending all this time creating a professional looking website and perfecting it and I wanted to stir things up a bit. Hence the meme image and the entire article. Based on the feedback I have received in this thread I have decided to take the article offline. I will replace it at a late date with a more neutral comparison table and I might put the meme-image on that page. In that way, it won't be too much, the meme image should perfectly balance out the boring comparison table.