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I just hope the West didn't miscalculate Russian response to their economy's violent contraction. Some say that if the US had never imposed sanctions on Japan

I just hope the West didn't miscalculate Russian response to their economy's violent contraction. Some say that if the US had never imposed sanctions on Japan in the 1930s, Japan wouldn't've attacked Pearl Harbor. In that case, the sanctions made it hard for Japan to import petroleum with the result that the Japanese chose to secure their supply by conquest of countries with petroleum reserves (mainly Indonesia IIRC).

duxup 5y ago
Yeah it’s hard to know where / when you draw the line, but a war of choice by a despot to topple a democracy…. It’s hard not to draw the line there. Hopefully this all ends soon, for everyone’s sake.
enkid 5y ago
So the West should just let Russia invade Ukraine? The reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor was because of the oil embargo, sure. But the oil embargo was in place because of their aggression against China. Should the US have kept selling oil to a country that was killing 100,000's of people in China? If is, where is the line drawn? When should the US have stopped supporting the Japanese war(which is what they were doing by selling the oil needed to carry it out)?
- erichocean 5y ago
  - pixl97 5y ago
    Every libertarian is fine with libertarianism right up till the moment they experience the repercussions of their actions. When someone murders a person you stop them, even if the risk of them murdering more people is a possibility.
    - erichocean 5y ago
      > When someone murders a person you stop them, even if the risk of them murdering more people is a possibility. Really? There were ~800 homicides in Chicago last year.[0] I haven't lifted a finger, have you? Maybe we should announce an "oil blockade" on the city to get them to change their behavior. Strip their funding. Block trade with other states/cities. But (of course) we won't. Why? Chicago? Those are our friends. And we reward our friends! "Murder" has nothing to do with it, and neither do "libertarian" principles. [0] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-2021-homicides-final-20220103-lrpzuh5nsjhspmos3edrzxu2ei-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-2021...
      - pixl97 5y ago
        I might suggest just removing your reply, it's seeming rather unhinged and disconnected from the facts at hand.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > Because of the blockade, we eventually ended up killing 250K Americans, burned alive 150K German civilians, and nuked two cities in Japan. We're just gonna pretend "ended the Holocaust" doesn't sit on the other side of that scale, eh?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- eezurr 5y ago
  Professor John Mearsheimer (a distinguished professor of political science) gave an inciteful talk regarding these events after Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014[1]. He places the blame squarely on the US for these events. The US would react just the same if Russia started expanding its military operations on our boarders [2]. I am deeply concerned that the West keeps upping the confrontation instead of backing down. Russia is sending some of its nuclear arsenal to Belarus as we speak [3] [1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis [3] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=belarus+nuclear https://duckduckgo.com/?q=belarus+nuclear Also, please don't flag my comment again. Everyone who's replied to you so far has had their comment flagged.
  - enkid 5y ago
    The US did not make Putin invade Ukraine. That's like saying Iran made the US invade Iraq, because Saddam didn't give up WMDs because he was scared about Iran. The only person who made Putin invade Ukraine is Putin. The US and West are not the ones that are upping the confrontation. Putin has invaded his neighbors multiple times, is interfering in internal political processes of democracies, and is threatening nuclear weapon use constantly. You can't look at this from one side and say it's the "West's" fault without looking that the Russian actions that were just as, or more escalatory. Edit: Also, I haven't flagged a single comment today, nor do I think I can flag a reply to my comments.
    - sinyug 5y ago
      - egman_ekki 5y ago
        > The map of Eastern Europe and NATO expansion over the last 25 years makes the US intention to encircle Russia very clear. Perhaps that was the evil plan of NATO. Why I feel it's different, though, is that those Eastern European countries tried to enter NATO as quickly as possible, as they still remembered Russia/USSR saving them from democracy in the 60s/70s. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  The West didn't expect anyone to intervene when we attacked Iraq over false claims about WMDs.
  - enkid 5y ago
    I don't understand your point. Iran certainly did intervene though. And I don't think there are many people you can point to that say now that the invasion was a good idea.
    - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
      Iran's intervention by putting explosively formed penetrators into the field of play pales in comparison to the West mobilizing their main armies.
- AniseAbyss 5y ago
  As cruel as it sounds: for the EU it is better to break Putin in Ukraine now rather than to wait.
nest0r 5y ago
You mean one of the first countries to join the axis that reffed up their military industrial complex even before the sanctions would not have joined the war? Sound logic :)
- hollerith 5y ago
  Didn't say they wouldn't've joined the war, just that they prol wouldn't've surprise-attacked the US.
ngcc_hk 5y ago
Not sure about that. That might be the trigger but attack USA is always in the plan to force USA out of the picture. In fact the key strategy is clean out all the aircraft carrier. Same here, to build back Soviet Union this might be the first step not just end there. The next will force the Baltic 3 back. Then Poland. Otherwise see UKraine. It does not work out smoothly does not mean there is no plan. The attack on pearl harbour is not due to oil embargo. Just like invasion of Ukraine is not because of … —— As said by others we as free people has to fight back. If no boots how about money. Can’t just sit. We will suffer as well. But better suffer now than sorry later.

duxup 5y ago

Yeah it’s hard to know where / when you draw the line, but a war of choice by a despot to topple a democracy…. It’s hard not to draw the line there. Hopefully this all ends soon, for everyone’s sake.

enkid 5y ago

So the West should just let Russia invade Ukraine? The reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor was because of the oil embargo, sure. But the oil embargo was in place because of their aggression against China. Should the US have kept selling oil to a country that was killing 100,000's of people in China? If is, where is the line drawn? When should the US have stopped supporting the Japanese war(which is what they were doing by selling the oil needed to carry it out)?

erichocean 5y ago
- pixl97 5y ago
  Every libertarian is fine with libertarianism right up till the moment they experience the repercussions of their actions. When someone murders a person you stop them, even if the risk of them murdering more people is a possibility.
  - erichocean 5y ago
    > When someone murders a person you stop them, even if the risk of them murdering more people is a possibility. Really? There were ~800 homicides in Chicago last year.[0] I haven't lifted a finger, have you? Maybe we should announce an "oil blockade" on the city to get them to change their behavior. Strip their funding. Block trade with other states/cities. But (of course) we won't. Why? Chicago? Those are our friends. And we reward our friends! "Murder" has nothing to do with it, and neither do "libertarian" principles. [0] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-2021-homicides-final-20220103-lrpzuh5nsjhspmos3edrzxu2ei-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-2021...
    - pixl97 5y ago
      I might suggest just removing your reply, it's seeming rather unhinged and disconnected from the facts at hand.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Because of the blockade, we eventually ended up killing 250K Americans, burned alive 150K German civilians, and nuked two cities in Japan. We're just gonna pretend "ended the Holocaust" doesn't sit on the other side of that scale, eh?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
eezurr 5y ago
Professor John Mearsheimer (a distinguished professor of political science) gave an inciteful talk regarding these events after Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014[1]. He places the blame squarely on the US for these events. The US would react just the same if Russia started expanding its military operations on our boarders [2]. I am deeply concerned that the West keeps upping the confrontation instead of backing down. Russia is sending some of its nuclear arsenal to Belarus as we speak [3] [1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis [3] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=belarus+nuclear https://duckduckgo.com/?q=belarus+nuclear Also, please don't flag my comment again. Everyone who's replied to you so far has had their comment flagged.
- enkid 5y ago
  The US did not make Putin invade Ukraine. That's like saying Iran made the US invade Iraq, because Saddam didn't give up WMDs because he was scared about Iran. The only person who made Putin invade Ukraine is Putin. The US and West are not the ones that are upping the confrontation. Putin has invaded his neighbors multiple times, is interfering in internal political processes of democracies, and is threatening nuclear weapon use constantly. You can't look at this from one side and say it's the "West's" fault without looking that the Russian actions that were just as, or more escalatory. Edit: Also, I haven't flagged a single comment today, nor do I think I can flag a reply to my comments.
  - sinyug 5y ago
    - egman_ekki 5y ago
      > The map of Eastern Europe and NATO expansion over the last 25 years makes the US intention to encircle Russia very clear. Perhaps that was the evil plan of NATO. Why I feel it's different, though, is that those Eastern European countries tried to enter NATO as quickly as possible, as they still remembered Russia/USSR saving them from democracy in the 60s/70s. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956
x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
The West didn't expect anyone to intervene when we attacked Iraq over false claims about WMDs.
- enkid 5y ago
  I don't understand your point. Iran certainly did intervene though. And I don't think there are many people you can point to that say now that the invasion was a good idea.
  - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
    Iran's intervention by putting explosively formed penetrators into the field of play pales in comparison to the West mobilizing their main armies.
AniseAbyss 5y ago
As cruel as it sounds: for the EU it is better to break Putin in Ukraine now rather than to wait.

nest0r 5y ago

You mean one of the first countries to join the axis that reffed up their military industrial complex even before the sanctions would not have joined the war? Sound logic :)

hollerith 5y ago
Didn't say they wouldn't've joined the war, just that they prol wouldn't've surprise-attacked the US.

ngcc_hk 5y ago

Not sure about that. That might be the trigger but attack USA is always in the plan to force USA out of the picture. In fact the key strategy is clean out all the aircraft carrier. Same here, to build back Soviet Union this might be the first step not just end there. The next will force the Baltic 3 back. Then Poland. Otherwise see UKraine. It does not work out smoothly does not mean there is no plan. The attack on pearl harbour is not due to oil embargo. Just like invasion of Ukraine is not because of … —— As said by others we as free people has to fight back. If no boots how about money. Can’t just sit. We will suffer as well. But better suffer now than sorry later.