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While I agree that much must be done to aid Ukraine, something everyone should understand is that the EU isn’t just a club that you sign a few papers to join.

While I agree that much must be done to aid Ukraine, something everyone should understand is that the EU isn’t just a club that you sign a few papers to join. It takes many years of reforms and organizational/legal/economic changes to reach the point of entry. This is a matter of compatibility and this is a drawn-our process. I come from Poland and the political establishment had to work for many years with much active help from EU member states to make that happen. Ukraine currently has the goal of joining the EU in the constitution and one should remember that the R invasion in 2014 and the escape of Janukovich to Russia was largely motivated by the Euro Maidan - a series of protests which were triggered when, after winning the election, Janukovich told everyone that there would be no plan to join the EU after all. Right now we shouldn’t be pushing the idea on Ukrainians that there is a possibility of fast-tracking this process. It will only make them angry when legal complexities reveal that it will take many years for it to happen.

deleted 5y ago
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marius_k 5y ago
Russia was threatening Ukraine not to join EU, and now Ukraine has nothing to loose.
YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
I had forgotten all about that, so to refresh everyone's memory: Euromaidan (/ˌjʊərəˌmaɪˈdɑːn, ˌjʊəroʊ-/;[74][75] Ukrainian: Євромайдан, romanized: Yevromaidan, literally 'Euro Square'[nb 6]) was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) in Kyiv. The protests were sparked by the Ukrainian government's decision to suspend the signing of the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. The scope of the protests widened, with calls for the resignation of the President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, and the Second Azarov Government.[79] The protests were fueled by the perception of "widespread government corruption", "abuse of power", and "violation of human rights in Ukraine".[80] Transparency International named President Yanukovych as the top example of corruption in the world.[81] The situation escalated after the violent dispersal of protesters on 30 November, leading to many more protesters joining.[5] The protests led to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, known as the Revolution of Dignity. During the Euromaidan, there were protests and clashes with police throughout Ukraine, especially at the Maidan (central square) in Kyiv, which was occupied and barricaded by protesters, along with some administrative buildings,[82] including Kyiv City State Administration. On 8 December, the crowd toppled a Lenin statue nearby. Protests and clashes increased in January, after the Ukrainian parliament passed a group of anti-protest laws. Protesters occupied government buildings in many regions of Ukraine. The protests climaxed in mid-February. Riot police advanced towards Maidan and clashed with protesters but did not fully occupy it. Police fired live and rubber ammunition at multiple locations in Kyiv. There was fierce fighting in Kyiv on 18–20 February (see List of people killed during Euromaidan). As a result of these events, the Agreement on settlement of political crisis in Ukraine was signed on 21 February 2014 by Yanukovych, and the leaders of the parliamentary opposition (Vitaly Klitschko, Arseny Yatsenyuk, Oleh Tyahnybok) under the mediation of the European Union and the Russian Federation. The signing was witnessed by the Foreign Ministers of Germany and Poland, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Radosław Sikorski, respectively, and the Director of the Continental Europe Department of the French Foreign Ministry, Eric Fournier.[83] Vladimir Lukin, representing Russia, refused to sign the agreement. Shortly after the agreement was signed, Yanukovych and other high government officials fled the country.[84] Protesters gained control of the presidential administration and Yanukovych's private estate. Afterwards, the parliament removed Yanukovych from office, replaced the government with Oleksandr Turchynov, and ordered that former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko be released from prison.[85] Events in Kyiv were soon followed by the Crimean crisis and pro-Russian unrest in Eastern Ukraine. Despite the ousting of Yanukovych,[86] the installation of a new government, and the adoption of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement's political provisions, the protests have sustained pressure on the government to reject Russian influence in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
jka 5y ago
I agree with you, and although this question is probably a bit unusual: do we know for sure that those paperwork and structural changes did not already begin years ago? (there have been rumblings and disquiet about the potential for conflict in this area for a long period of time, and we could hope that wise, co-operative politicians would prepare defensive plans in advance)
- scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
  These things aren’t some secret paperwork that needs to be filed, they’re publicly visible legal reforms that make the economies and legal systems compatible with all the other member states’. Not to mention a ton of regulatory trade stuff. I would compare it to rewiring an entire operating system AND bios AND… I dunno assembly language or something. And this isn’t just about compatibility, it’s also about trust - EU membership goes along with many commitments and standards. And now imagine 10-20 years down the a post-Putin Russia influencing Ukraine once again, only now it is a EU member state, Zelenskyy has retired and some other euro-sceptic madman is manipulating the EU only from the inside. This also is a concern politically - how sure can we be that Ukraine, which is known for swinging East-West, doesn’t swing back? Just look at the conflicts that Poland and Hungary have caused. These are countries which are basically breaking democratic standards from the inside and vetoing change. Not an easy situation.
  - jka 5y ago
    Thank you - I'm not sure I have further thoughts to add at the moment, but wanted to acknowledge having read your message.
  - AndrewDucker 5y ago
    "These things aren’t some secret paperwork that needs to be filed, they’re publicly visible legal reforms that make the economies and legal systems compatible with all the other member states." Probably a good thing that it started in 1994 with the Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between them, moved on to the Joint EU–Ukraine Action Plan in 2005, and then to the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement in 2013, which didn't get signed because of Russian interference and led directly to a revolution. Oh, and then after the revolution, we got the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement. So they might not be quite ready, it's not like this has come out of nowhere, and lots of reforms haven't already happened.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

marius_k 5y ago

Russia was threatening Ukraine not to join EU, and now Ukraine has nothing to loose.

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago

I had forgotten all about that, so to refresh everyone's memory: Euromaidan (/ˌjʊərəˌmaɪˈdɑːn, ˌjʊəroʊ-/;[74][75] Ukrainian: Євромайдан, romanized: Yevromaidan, literally 'Euro Square'[nb 6]) was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) in Kyiv. The protests were sparked by the Ukrainian government's decision to suspend the signing of the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. The scope of the protests widened, with calls for the resignation of the President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, and the Second Azarov Government.[79] The protests were fueled by the perception of "widespread government corruption", "abuse of power", and "violation of human rights in Ukraine".[80] Transparency International named President Yanukovych as the top example of corruption in the world.[81] The situation escalated after the violent dispersal of protesters on 30 November, leading to many more protesters joining.[5] The protests led to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, known as the Revolution of Dignity. During the Euromaidan, there were protests and clashes with police throughout Ukraine, especially at the Maidan (central square) in Kyiv, which was occupied and barricaded by protesters, along with some administrative buildings,[82] including Kyiv City State Administration. On 8 December, the crowd toppled a Lenin statue nearby. Protests and clashes increased in January, after the Ukrainian parliament passed a group of anti-protest laws. Protesters occupied government buildings in many regions of Ukraine. The protests climaxed in mid-February. Riot police advanced towards Maidan and clashed with protesters but did not fully occupy it. Police fired live and rubber ammunition at multiple locations in Kyiv. There was fierce fighting in Kyiv on 18–20 February (see List of people killed during Euromaidan). As a result of these events, the Agreement on settlement of political crisis in Ukraine was signed on 21 February 2014 by Yanukovych, and the leaders of the parliamentary opposition (Vitaly Klitschko, Arseny Yatsenyuk, Oleh Tyahnybok) under the mediation of the European Union and the Russian Federation. The signing was witnessed by the Foreign Ministers of Germany and Poland, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Radosław Sikorski, respectively, and the Director of the Continental Europe Department of the French Foreign Ministry, Eric Fournier.[83] Vladimir Lukin, representing Russia, refused to sign the agreement. Shortly after the agreement was signed, Yanukovych and other high government officials fled the country.[84] Protesters gained control of the presidential administration and Yanukovych's private estate. Afterwards, the parliament removed Yanukovych from office, replaced the government with Oleksandr Turchynov, and ordered that former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko be released from prison.[85] Events in Kyiv were soon followed by the Crimean crisis and pro-Russian unrest in Eastern Ukraine. Despite the ousting of Yanukovych,[86] the installation of a new government, and the adoption of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement's political provisions, the protests have sustained pressure on the government to reject Russian influence in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

jka 5y ago

I agree with you, and although this question is probably a bit unusual: do we know for sure that those paperwork and structural changes did not already begin years ago? (there have been rumblings and disquiet about the potential for conflict in this area for a long period of time, and we could hope that wise, co-operative politicians would prepare defensive plans in advance)

scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
These things aren’t some secret paperwork that needs to be filed, they’re publicly visible legal reforms that make the economies and legal systems compatible with all the other member states’. Not to mention a ton of regulatory trade stuff. I would compare it to rewiring an entire operating system AND bios AND… I dunno assembly language or something. And this isn’t just about compatibility, it’s also about trust - EU membership goes along with many commitments and standards. And now imagine 10-20 years down the a post-Putin Russia influencing Ukraine once again, only now it is a EU member state, Zelenskyy has retired and some other euro-sceptic madman is manipulating the EU only from the inside. This also is a concern politically - how sure can we be that Ukraine, which is known for swinging East-West, doesn’t swing back? Just look at the conflicts that Poland and Hungary have caused. These are countries which are basically breaking democratic standards from the inside and vetoing change. Not an easy situation.
- jka 5y ago
  Thank you - I'm not sure I have further thoughts to add at the moment, but wanted to acknowledge having read your message.
- AndrewDucker 5y ago
  "These things aren’t some secret paperwork that needs to be filed, they’re publicly visible legal reforms that make the economies and legal systems compatible with all the other member states." Probably a good thing that it started in 1994 with the Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between them, moved on to the Joint EU–Ukraine Action Plan in 2005, and then to the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement in 2013, which didn't get signed because of Russian interference and led directly to a revolution. Oh, and then after the revolution, we got the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement. So they might not be quite ready, it's not like this has come out of nowhere, and lots of reforms haven't already happened.