5 ms·

Just for the record- it only takes about 21k miles of driving (a year or two for most people) to release as much CO2 as the production of the battery for a long

Just for the record- it only takes about 21k miles of driving (a year or two for most people) to release as much CO2 as the production of the battery for a long range Tesla Model 3. The standard range Model 3 comes in just under 16k miles. It seems to me like most people expect more. Also, I don't think EV prices have really changed that much. Chip shortages haven't really affected it. High gas prices and inflation are probably the only numbers you really need to worry about. https://www.oliver-krischer.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/English_Studie.pdf https://www.oliver-krischer.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/En... https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php The math: standard/long-range Model 3 batteries are 62 and 82 kWh. First link puts GHG byproducts of production at 75 kg/kWh- 4650 and 6150 kg. Mazda 3 gets 30 mpg combined and the second link gives 8.78 kg CO2 per gallon.

gameswithgo 5y ago
For the co2 equivalency analysis you really need to compare the total GHG byproduct of the production of each entire car and their fuels. The EV has a battery which is energy intensive to produce, but some of that would also be required to build and engine/transmission etc. and extracting oil and turning it into gasoline and delivering it has GHG byproducts, as well as producing and delivering electricity.
- jakswa 5y ago
  Union of Concerned Scientists still did the most in-depth analysis I've seen, and they agree with the ~6mo-18mo time period to offset the more-intensive manufacturing. And it's so old now that I think you can assume the transition to cleaner grids has progressed further in some cases. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave
  - exhilaration 5y ago
    Thank you for that link. They've summarized their analysis into a YouTube video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9WDxmSN8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9WDxmSN8
    - jakswa 5y ago
      No problem! I keep it in mind because I keep hoping I see an updated report some day that goes that in-depth. Or possibly a report that refutes/contradicts what I've read. They dug into the USA regional energy mixes in the report I linked! And they claimed to include transmission + charging efficiency losses. I was surprised at how comprehensive it seemed. edit: this report https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cl...
lastofthemojito 5y ago
> Also, I don't think EV prices have really changed that much. Chip shortages haven't really affected it. EV prices have shot up along with other new cars. Probably the 2 best known EVs, the Tesla Model S and Model 3 went from $77.4k to $99.5k and from $38.1k to $46.1k in 2021. 28% and 21% increases respectively.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
nightski 5y ago
Does this assume the electricity is emission free? Because where I live less than 40% of our electricity is from renewables (even those aren't completely 0 carbon impact, as they have to produce panels/wind mills/etc...). The rest is from oil & gas plants. I understand you are comparing driving an ICE vehicle vs. production of an electric one. But it seems a little misleading to ignore the co2 impact of driving the electric car which is far from 0.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- megaman821 5y ago
  I would guess the more you extend the comparison the worse it gets for combustion cars. Most people get their electricity from natural gas plants delivered through a pipeline, and there is a future prospect to shift this to more renewables. Oil is pumped and delivered to a refinery, then the gas is put on a truck, and delivered to a gas station. All these things require either electricity or gas to run.
  - nightski 5y ago
    I wasn't suggesting to extend the comparison. I was saying that for the comparison done they were ignoring the environmental impact of driving the EV. Obviously EV comes out on top over a very long period of time. I'm just suggesting that period of time is longer than suggested by the parent. Personally I'd love to buy an EV but in our climate battery life is reduced by 30%, renewables are a low portion of our electricity, EVs cost a lot more than ICE vehicles, and many aren't built to drive in snowy/icy conditions. I've been patiently waiting for these variables to change before my next car purchase - driving my current ICE into the ground.
    - gibolt 5y ago
      Most studies compare grids from right now, or the recent past. EVs win in all cases, and rapidly get even better as the grid advances.
hinkley 5y ago
There was a time where the embodied energy of efficient vehicles was much higher than bad ones and it made the objective math a lot fuzzier. Maybe things have gotten better.
- hwillis 5y ago
  You are referring to the "Sweden study" by Romare et al. It was roundly ridiculed when it was published and has since been retracted. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/06/22/swedish-ev-battery-study-sucks/ https://cleantechnica.com/2017/06/22/swedish-ev-battery-stud...

gameswithgo 5y ago

For the co2 equivalency analysis you really need to compare the total GHG byproduct of the production of each entire car and their fuels. The EV has a battery which is energy intensive to produce, but some of that would also be required to build and engine/transmission etc. and extracting oil and turning it into gasoline and delivering it has GHG byproducts, as well as producing and delivering electricity.

jakswa 5y ago
Union of Concerned Scientists still did the most in-depth analysis I've seen, and they agree with the ~6mo-18mo time period to offset the more-intensive manufacturing. And it's so old now that I think you can assume the transition to cleaner grids has progressed further in some cases. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave
- exhilaration 5y ago
  Thank you for that link. They've summarized their analysis into a YouTube video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9WDxmSN8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9WDxmSN8
  - jakswa 5y ago
    No problem! I keep it in mind because I keep hoping I see an updated report some day that goes that in-depth. Or possibly a report that refutes/contradicts what I've read. They dug into the USA regional energy mixes in the report I linked! And they claimed to include transmission + charging efficiency losses. I was surprised at how comprehensive it seemed. edit: this report https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cl...

lastofthemojito 5y ago

> Also, I don't think EV prices have really changed that much. Chip shortages haven't really affected it. EV prices have shot up along with other new cars. Probably the 2 best known EVs, the Tesla Model S and Model 3 went from $77.4k to $99.5k and from $38.1k to $46.1k in 2021. 28% and 21% increases respectively.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

nightski 5y ago

Does this assume the electricity is emission free? Because where I live less than 40% of our electricity is from renewables (even those aren't completely 0 carbon impact, as they have to produce panels/wind mills/etc...). The rest is from oil & gas plants. I understand you are comparing driving an ICE vehicle vs. production of an electric one. But it seems a little misleading to ignore the co2 impact of driving the electric car which is far from 0.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
megaman821 5y ago
I would guess the more you extend the comparison the worse it gets for combustion cars. Most people get their electricity from natural gas plants delivered through a pipeline, and there is a future prospect to shift this to more renewables. Oil is pumped and delivered to a refinery, then the gas is put on a truck, and delivered to a gas station. All these things require either electricity or gas to run.
- nightski 5y ago
  I wasn't suggesting to extend the comparison. I was saying that for the comparison done they were ignoring the environmental impact of driving the EV. Obviously EV comes out on top over a very long period of time. I'm just suggesting that period of time is longer than suggested by the parent. Personally I'd love to buy an EV but in our climate battery life is reduced by 30%, renewables are a low portion of our electricity, EVs cost a lot more than ICE vehicles, and many aren't built to drive in snowy/icy conditions. I've been patiently waiting for these variables to change before my next car purchase - driving my current ICE into the ground.
  - gibolt 5y ago
    Most studies compare grids from right now, or the recent past. EVs win in all cases, and rapidly get even better as the grid advances.

hinkley 5y ago

There was a time where the embodied energy of efficient vehicles was much higher than bad ones and it made the objective math a lot fuzzier. Maybe things have gotten better.

hwillis 5y ago
You are referring to the "Sweden study" by Romare et al. It was roundly ridiculed when it was published and has since been retracted. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/06/22/swedish-ev-battery-study-sucks/ https://cleantechnica.com/2017/06/22/swedish-ev-battery-stud...