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I really don't understand what I'm missing here: How the fuck are cryptos useful to Russian or Ukranian people right now? I mean, they can't buy stuff with it (

by shafyy 5y ago

I really don't understand what I'm missing here: How the fuck are cryptos useful to Russian or Ukranian people right now? I mean, they can't buy stuff with it (you know, like food), and if you exchange it to Ruble, why not start with Ruble in the first place? I know that Ruble will be in a free fall, but cryptos are not stable either. So it's like buying Ruble, but with extra steps.

davidwritesbugs 5y ago
Extra steps, and extra fees, and the risk of exchanges. So I don't think you're missing anything. It's Bitcoin maximalist economic nonsense.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  At this point alternatives also include significant risks.
Tenoke 5y ago
I expect it's easy to send funds via crypto to and from there and regardless of sanctions from the west. It's unlikely to be the only solution even after swift and other bans but it's an easyish extra option, especially for those already familiar with the ecosystem.
- shafyy 5y ago
  Ok, let's say it is easier and cheaper to send funds via crypto (which I'd argue is not generally the case). I'm a Russian in Russia and somebody sent me some Bitcoin. What do I do next to use this money?
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    Localbitcoin/local crypto/localmonero and similar (e.g. asking at a crypto meetup forum) are an option if bank transfers don't work. Bitcoin ATMs if you really are in a hurry and willing to take a potentially high exchange rate hit. Otherwise there's exchanges which still operate within Russia for the time being and some business (tho too rare to be useful but In a big city, if you don't have funds others than what was sent to you, you might be able to buy more than otherwise) accept it though I wouldn't rely on that too much unless you know a specific one.
    - toyg 5y ago
      Until a quick decree makes bitcoin exchanges illegal.
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      > Bitcoin ATMs Where might I find one of these (near mythical) beasts?
      - Tenoke 5y ago
        Search near your location at: https://coinatmradar.com/ https://coinatmradar.com/ https://www.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-atm/ https://www.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-atm/ I've been seeing them occasionally in big cities since 2014-15 though again it's never worth it at least for me - the exchange rate is typically pretty bad and I'd rather wait but go through a low fee/feeless option.
        kwhitefoot 5y ago
        Nearest is in Kiel, just short of 600 km away. If I drive to it it will take about eleven hours and involve driving in four countries to drive almost 1000 km.
    - shafyy 5y ago
      Ok, but at this point I could have just gotten Ruble in the first place no?
      - Tenoke 5y ago
        If you can then sure it's not for you. However, not everyone can receive or send rubles as easily to/from the west especially after the SWIFT and related bans. Either way, it doesn't hurt to have the extra option.
  - syntheweave 5y ago
    Find another person who accepts Bitcoin and do business with them. Neither of you has to exchange to rubles to participate in the economy. At some point the flow does have to exit to something that a corporation or ministry controls; so an exchange business will necessarily appear, even if it's extremely high risk; someone will be in a position to pull strings. It's not a stretch when you look at how countries with weak local currencies have been operating for decades, just usually with USD as the preferred trade currency instead.
smartties 5y ago
As much as I dislike the whole crypto space, I can see how crypto stable coins (which comes with it's own risk...) could help Russian people secure their savings against government seizing and also fight against the devaluation of their currency.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Welcome to the other side ;).
  - discreteevent 5y ago
    In this particular case it is more likely that the other side has a high percentage of oligarchs who have had plenty of time and ability to divest to crypto and other assets outside of government control. Most of the people on the street wouldn't even know where to start. So welcome to the other side, same as this side, same as it ever was.
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      You are misreading my response. It was because HN is known to be anti-crypto. So I meant 'welcome to the pro crypto side'. And to your response, maybe instead disallowing all people crypto, let's make it easier for everyone. Times like this make it more clear than ever that crypto is not just a "solution looking for a problem".
- shafyy 5y ago
  I think it's naive to think that the Russian government can't interfere with funds held in crypto by Russian people. In the least, they can prevent them converting it to fiat currency.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    For now. In 5 years who knows.
- zaarn 5y ago
roenxi 5y ago
There are basically two outcomes for someone involved in a war. Either their world will end, or they will have to live after the war. Which is a roundabout way of saying that on an individual level the economic calculations aren't that different from usual. They still need to plan on living a life after the current conflict, and will need to preserve their savings despite a rather predatory government looking for logs to throw into the fire of war. What ordinary people desperately need is assets they can hide from their government to preserve some wealth. However, because it is 2022, they also have the option of assets that literally nobody can take off them. It'd be worth a shot, maybe the legal situation will be different in 5-10 years and if they invest in a crypto they'll be able to trade it for something. I like their odds in literally anything more than odds in the Russian rouble. So crypto would make sense.
- shafyy 5y ago
  Ok, I can see this point. Still, I think the vast majority of people need money now, especially in a poor country like Russia.
- toyg 5y ago
  > assets they can hide from their government to preserve some wealth I doubt that a government who pioneered cyberwarfare will be unable to locate your bitcoins; and once you do that, to acquire them they only need some goon with a monkeywrench - of which, I'm sure, there is no scarcity in Russia right now.
  - karpierz 5y ago
    Or just install a keylogger/virus on your computer to take your crypto.
- acdha 5y ago
  > However, because it is 2022, they also have the option of assets that literally nobody can take off them. Don’t oversell it: this is a government with advanced internet monitoring capabilities and little concern about civil liberties. Make one opsec mistake or transact with someone who does, show unexplained money, etc. and then it’s “turn over the key if you want to see your children out of prison”. Blockchains are exceptionally risky here because they require a lot of visible network activity and leave a full history of your activity for the authorities.
koonsolo 5y ago
We're talking about savings here. Buy crypto stablecoins, store somewhere encrypted. Then move out of Russia and collect your savings. Or wait it out until the dust settles. Anyway, do you have a better way how to store wealth or savings in such situations? Crypto seems like a very good option.
- shafyy 5y ago
  I'd wager most Russians don't have savings, and need money today to feed themselves. And for most people just moving out and collecting our Bitcoin savings is not a viable option, not even in the future. I don't have a better way, but I'm just saying that crypto is also not a good way.
  - wanderingstan 5y ago
    > I'd wager most Russians don't have savings Russia is not a country of people living on the edge of starvation. They have savings and save up to buy houses like any middle class people.
    - shafyy 5y ago
      The median US citizen's savings is around $5k, and the US is the richest country on Earth (or so I'm told) [0]. So, my point stands: Most people don't have a lot of savings, and don't have the luxury to just save money for a later date. 0: https://www.valuepenguin.com/banking/average-savings-account-balance https://www.valuepenguin.com/banking/average-savings-account...
      - soared 5y ago
        That is bank account value (typically spending money and emergency fund) and does not include retirement savings (401k, ira) or other wealth stores (house, car) so it’s not really an accurate picture of long term savings.
        5y ago

by shafyy 5y ago

davidwritesbugs 5y ago

Extra steps, and extra fees, and the risk of exchanges. So I don't think you're missing anything. It's Bitcoin maximalist economic nonsense.

lostmsu 5y ago
At this point alternatives also include significant risks.

Tenoke 5y ago

I expect it's easy to send funds via crypto to and from there and regardless of sanctions from the west. It's unlikely to be the only solution even after swift and other bans but it's an easyish extra option, especially for those already familiar with the ecosystem.

shafyy 5y ago
Ok, let's say it is easier and cheaper to send funds via crypto (which I'd argue is not generally the case). I'm a Russian in Russia and somebody sent me some Bitcoin. What do I do next to use this money?
- Tenoke 5y ago
  Localbitcoin/local crypto/localmonero and similar (e.g. asking at a crypto meetup forum) are an option if bank transfers don't work. Bitcoin ATMs if you really are in a hurry and willing to take a potentially high exchange rate hit. Otherwise there's exchanges which still operate within Russia for the time being and some business (tho too rare to be useful but In a big city, if you don't have funds others than what was sent to you, you might be able to buy more than otherwise) accept it though I wouldn't rely on that too much unless you know a specific one.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Until a quick decree makes bitcoin exchanges illegal.
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    > Bitcoin ATMs Where might I find one of these (near mythical) beasts?
    - Tenoke 5y ago
      Search near your location at: https://coinatmradar.com/ https://coinatmradar.com/ https://www.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-atm/ https://www.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-atm/ I've been seeing them occasionally in big cities since 2014-15 though again it's never worth it at least for me - the exchange rate is typically pretty bad and I'd rather wait but go through a low fee/feeless option.
      - kwhitefoot 5y ago
        Nearest is in Kiel, just short of 600 km away. If I drive to it it will take about eleven hours and involve driving in four countries to drive almost 1000 km.
  - shafyy 5y ago
    Ok, but at this point I could have just gotten Ruble in the first place no?
    - Tenoke 5y ago
      If you can then sure it's not for you. However, not everyone can receive or send rubles as easily to/from the west especially after the SWIFT and related bans. Either way, it doesn't hurt to have the extra option.
- syntheweave 5y ago
  Find another person who accepts Bitcoin and do business with them. Neither of you has to exchange to rubles to participate in the economy. At some point the flow does have to exit to something that a corporation or ministry controls; so an exchange business will necessarily appear, even if it's extremely high risk; someone will be in a position to pull strings. It's not a stretch when you look at how countries with weak local currencies have been operating for decades, just usually with USD as the preferred trade currency instead.

smartties 5y ago

As much as I dislike the whole crypto space, I can see how crypto stable coins (which comes with it's own risk...) could help Russian people secure their savings against government seizing and also fight against the devaluation of their currency.

koonsolo 5y ago
Welcome to the other side ;).
- discreteevent 5y ago
  In this particular case it is more likely that the other side has a high percentage of oligarchs who have had plenty of time and ability to divest to crypto and other assets outside of government control. Most of the people on the street wouldn't even know where to start. So welcome to the other side, same as this side, same as it ever was.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    You are misreading my response. It was because HN is known to be anti-crypto. So I meant 'welcome to the pro crypto side'. And to your response, maybe instead disallowing all people crypto, let's make it easier for everyone. Times like this make it more clear than ever that crypto is not just a "solution looking for a problem".
shafyy 5y ago
I think it's naive to think that the Russian government can't interfere with funds held in crypto by Russian people. In the least, they can prevent them converting it to fiat currency.
- iso1631 5y ago
  For now. In 5 years who knows.
zaarn 5y ago

roenxi 5y ago

There are basically two outcomes for someone involved in a war. Either their world will end, or they will have to live after the war. Which is a roundabout way of saying that on an individual level the economic calculations aren't that different from usual. They still need to plan on living a life after the current conflict, and will need to preserve their savings despite a rather predatory government looking for logs to throw into the fire of war. What ordinary people desperately need is assets they can hide from their government to preserve some wealth. However, because it is 2022, they also have the option of assets that literally nobody can take off them. It'd be worth a shot, maybe the legal situation will be different in 5-10 years and if they invest in a crypto they'll be able to trade it for something. I like their odds in literally anything more than odds in the Russian rouble. So crypto would make sense.

shafyy 5y ago
Ok, I can see this point. Still, I think the vast majority of people need money now, especially in a poor country like Russia.
toyg 5y ago
> assets they can hide from their government to preserve some wealth I doubt that a government who pioneered cyberwarfare will be unable to locate your bitcoins; and once you do that, to acquire them they only need some goon with a monkeywrench - of which, I'm sure, there is no scarcity in Russia right now.
- karpierz 5y ago
  Or just install a keylogger/virus on your computer to take your crypto.
acdha 5y ago
> However, because it is 2022, they also have the option of assets that literally nobody can take off them. Don’t oversell it: this is a government with advanced internet monitoring capabilities and little concern about civil liberties. Make one opsec mistake or transact with someone who does, show unexplained money, etc. and then it’s “turn over the key if you want to see your children out of prison”. Blockchains are exceptionally risky here because they require a lot of visible network activity and leave a full history of your activity for the authorities.

koonsolo 5y ago

We're talking about savings here. Buy crypto stablecoins, store somewhere encrypted. Then move out of Russia and collect your savings. Or wait it out until the dust settles. Anyway, do you have a better way how to store wealth or savings in such situations? Crypto seems like a very good option.

shafyy 5y ago
I'd wager most Russians don't have savings, and need money today to feed themselves. And for most people just moving out and collecting our Bitcoin savings is not a viable option, not even in the future. I don't have a better way, but I'm just saying that crypto is also not a good way.
- wanderingstan 5y ago
  > I'd wager most Russians don't have savings Russia is not a country of people living on the edge of starvation. They have savings and save up to buy houses like any middle class people.
  - shafyy 5y ago
    The median US citizen's savings is around $5k, and the US is the richest country on Earth (or so I'm told) [0]. So, my point stands: Most people don't have a lot of savings, and don't have the luxury to just save money for a later date. 0: https://www.valuepenguin.com/banking/average-savings-account-balance https://www.valuepenguin.com/banking/average-savings-account...
    - soared 5y ago
      That is bank account value (typically spending money and emergency fund) and does not include retirement savings (401k, ira) or other wealth stores (house, car) so it’s not really an accurate picture of long term savings.
      - 5y ago