5 ms·

Columbia's Sachs Criticizes NATO's Handling of Ukraine

celticninja 5y ago
Diplomacy has not worked, it didn't work after polonium, novichok or Crimea. It's big stick time time unfortunately.
- thomassmith65 5y ago
  I agree with you, but am somewhat uncomfortable about it. My respect for Sachs verges on idolatry.
- sinyug 5y ago
  > Diplomacy has not worked Inviting former parts of the Soviet Union to join NATO is not "diplomacy."[1] The US should try this diplomacy with China: recognize Taiwan as an independent country, invite it to join NATO and see what the Chinese do. [1] Blinken: Ukraine has all tools to move towards NATO membership (https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/blinken-ukraine-has-all-tools-to-move-towards-nato-membership.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/blinken-ukraine-ha...)
  - thevagrant 5y ago
    Ukraine is a sovereign country. It is not like the world suddenly recognised it as a new country last week.
    - pydry 5y ago
      The real test of whether the west really believes this isnt Ukraine but when hypersonic missiles are deployed in Cuba and pointed at the US. ...which is looking less theoretical by the day. NATO already made it pretty clear with Libya that sovereignty wasnt top among its list of concerns.
      - thevagrant 5y ago
        So based on your 'less theoretical' incohesive point about two other nations not related to Ukraine. You expect the world to step aside and do what exactly?
        pydry 5y ago
        I'm saying that nobody really gives a fuck about sovereignty, least of all when there's a military threat on their doorstep. Not the US. Not NATO. Not Russia.
        thevagrant 5y ago
        That makes no sense. If no one gave a shit about sovereignty then War wouldn't occur because "nobody really gives a fuck".
  - Naktibalda 5y ago
    It isn't a NATO problem that all neighbours of Russia want to join NATO.
    - jvln 5y ago
      What might be the reason..?
- pjc50 5y ago
  Indeed. I suspect that Putin thought he'd get away with this without a response because he did the previous dozen or so times. Including the previous invasion of Ukraine. Bit of a failure to indicate what was actually a red line.
- justsomehnguy 5y ago
  Clearly you didn't even bothered to watch the video.
- boffinAudio 5y ago
  The West doesn't have any big sticks left. Diplomacy didn't work after Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Somalia, or .. Yemen .. either. It didn't work to stop the murder of two million innocent people in Iraq, and it hasn't worked to stop genocide enacted by a totalitarian-authoritarian dictatorship, aligned with Al'Qaeda, and supported by the Wests' military-industrial complex. It didn't prevent the utter destruction of Mosul or Raqqa, and it hasn't stopped the funding and arming of known terrorist groups by Western NATO members, either. Given that heinous track record, nobody wants to 'negotiate' with the West any longer, and that is quite understandable. If you want to do something effective, get your OWN war criminals prosecuted for their crimes.
resoluteteeth 5y ago
Even if it's true that NATO gradually violated a promise not to expand from 30 years ago, saying that that means it's NATO's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine now, or that diplomacy is the solution in the middle of a war that has already started, just doesn't really make sense. I mean sure, if Russia would agree to get out of Ukraine in exchange for NATO not enlarging I guess that would be great, but it's a little late to say that talking about that is the solution after Russia has already invaded Ukraine. You just don't get to randomly invade neighboring countries because other countries may have happened to violate various promises years ago.
- boffinAudio 5y ago
  What war crimes and other crimes against humanity has NATO and its member states committed, with impunity, in the last twenty years? Russia doesn't want NATO on its borders because NATO and its principle membership is factually an aggressive, criminal operation with the blood of millions of innocent people on its hands. Iraq lost 5% of its population to the evil antics of NATO states, operating with seeming impunity, launching attacks from NATO bases across the landscape. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. We in the West might be comfortable with ignoring this fact, but Russians are not. NATO acquires membership countries through 'soft' (CIA) means, but it also bombs non-member countries determined to be 'inferior' by its membership into utter oblivion. >Why did Poland feel the need to join an organization to defend itself against Russia? Decades of CIA agit-prop designed to drive a wedge between two states that, were they allies, would factually represent a major challenge to American hegemony. NATO is a trap to keep states fighting.. If Russia and Europe were to align into an economic bloc rather than fight, even China couldn't hold a light to the resulting superpower.
  - Naktibalda 5y ago
    I don't support what US did in Iraq or Afganisthan, but you got Russia's motives wrong. Russia doesn't want to see its neighbours protected from Russia's aggression.
    - boffinAudio 5y ago
rgbrenner 5y ago
So let’s reset nato to it’s 1990 borders and leave Poland et al to defend themselves. Does that sound right to anyone? What would Russia do if we did that? We all know: they would destroy more democratic countries. Russia is an aggressor run by a dictator.. and like all dictators they feel threatened by democracy. Putin has wanted to rebuild the Soviet sphere since the day it collapsed. These countries just want a chance to live in peace, and they would have never sought nato protection if Russia would just let that happen. They deserve freedom even if it hurts putins feelings.
- posix_me_less 5y ago
  Putin's feelings maybe connected to russian nukes' status, so hold your horses and maybe let's not push democracy down his throat and be badly surprised later.

Diplomacy has not worked, it didn't work after polonium, novichok or Crimea. It's big stick time time unfortunately.

thomassmith65 5y ago
I agree with you, but am somewhat uncomfortable about it. My respect for Sachs verges on idolatry.
sinyug 5y ago
> Diplomacy has not worked Inviting former parts of the Soviet Union to join NATO is not "diplomacy."[1] The US should try this diplomacy with China: recognize Taiwan as an independent country, invite it to join NATO and see what the Chinese do. [1] Blinken: Ukraine has all tools to move towards NATO membership (https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/blinken-ukraine-has-all-tools-to-move-towards-nato-membership.html https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/blinken-ukraine-ha...)
- thevagrant 5y ago
  Ukraine is a sovereign country. It is not like the world suddenly recognised it as a new country last week.
  - pydry 5y ago
    The real test of whether the west really believes this isnt Ukraine but when hypersonic missiles are deployed in Cuba and pointed at the US. ...which is looking less theoretical by the day. NATO already made it pretty clear with Libya that sovereignty wasnt top among its list of concerns.
    - thevagrant 5y ago
      So based on your 'less theoretical' incohesive point about two other nations not related to Ukraine. You expect the world to step aside and do what exactly?
      - pydry 5y ago
        I'm saying that nobody really gives a fuck about sovereignty, least of all when there's a military threat on their doorstep. Not the US. Not NATO. Not Russia.
        thevagrant 5y ago
        That makes no sense. If no one gave a shit about sovereignty then War wouldn't occur because "nobody really gives a fuck".
- Naktibalda 5y ago
  It isn't a NATO problem that all neighbours of Russia want to join NATO.
  - jvln 5y ago
    What might be the reason..?
pjc50 5y ago
Indeed. I suspect that Putin thought he'd get away with this without a response because he did the previous dozen or so times. Including the previous invasion of Ukraine. Bit of a failure to indicate what was actually a red line.
justsomehnguy 5y ago
Clearly you didn't even bothered to watch the video.
boffinAudio 5y ago
The West doesn't have any big sticks left. Diplomacy didn't work after Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Somalia, or .. Yemen .. either. It didn't work to stop the murder of two million innocent people in Iraq, and it hasn't worked to stop genocide enacted by a totalitarian-authoritarian dictatorship, aligned with Al'Qaeda, and supported by the Wests' military-industrial complex. It didn't prevent the utter destruction of Mosul or Raqqa, and it hasn't stopped the funding and arming of known terrorist groups by Western NATO members, either. Given that heinous track record, nobody wants to 'negotiate' with the West any longer, and that is quite understandable. If you want to do something effective, get your OWN war criminals prosecuted for their crimes.

Even if it's true that NATO gradually violated a promise not to expand from 30 years ago, saying that that means it's NATO's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine now, or that diplomacy is the solution in the middle of a war that has already started, just doesn't really make sense. I mean sure, if Russia would agree to get out of Ukraine in exchange for NATO not enlarging I guess that would be great, but it's a little late to say that talking about that is the solution after Russia has already invaded Ukraine. You just don't get to randomly invade neighboring countries because other countries may have happened to violate various promises years ago.

boffinAudio 5y ago
What war crimes and other crimes against humanity has NATO and its member states committed, with impunity, in the last twenty years? Russia doesn't want NATO on its borders because NATO and its principle membership is factually an aggressive, criminal operation with the blood of millions of innocent people on its hands. Iraq lost 5% of its population to the evil antics of NATO states, operating with seeming impunity, launching attacks from NATO bases across the landscape. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. We in the West might be comfortable with ignoring this fact, but Russians are not. NATO acquires membership countries through 'soft' (CIA) means, but it also bombs non-member countries determined to be 'inferior' by its membership into utter oblivion. >Why did Poland feel the need to join an organization to defend itself against Russia? Decades of CIA agit-prop designed to drive a wedge between two states that, were they allies, would factually represent a major challenge to American hegemony. NATO is a trap to keep states fighting.. If Russia and Europe were to align into an economic bloc rather than fight, even China couldn't hold a light to the resulting superpower.
- Naktibalda 5y ago
  I don't support what US did in Iraq or Afganisthan, but you got Russia's motives wrong. Russia doesn't want to see its neighbours protected from Russia's aggression.
  - boffinAudio 5y ago

rgbrenner 5y ago

So let’s reset nato to it’s 1990 borders and leave Poland et al to defend themselves. Does that sound right to anyone? What would Russia do if we did that? We all know: they would destroy more democratic countries. Russia is an aggressor run by a dictator.. and like all dictators they feel threatened by democracy. Putin has wanted to rebuild the Soviet sphere since the day it collapsed. These countries just want a chance to live in peace, and they would have never sought nato protection if Russia would just let that happen. They deserve freedom even if it hurts putins feelings.

posix_me_less 5y ago
Putin's feelings maybe connected to russian nukes' status, so hold your horses and maybe let's not push democracy down his throat and be badly surprised later.