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"suck up your tax dollars"? Ask any public education worker you might know, just how much they get paid. They are grossly underpaid for the societally-import

"suck up your tax dollars"? Ask any public education worker you might know, just how much they get paid. They are grossly underpaid for the societally-important work they do. Further, they absolutely did not take on the job knowing they were going to be risking catching a wildly-infectious deadly disease. Also, no one's talking about "only work when they feel like it", and your disingenuous reframing of not wanting to die from a preventable illness is insulting at best. There's little reason to force in-person teaching when infection rates are at sky-high levels. Them being paid by tax dollars doesn't mean they don't deserve a safe workplace. Think empathically about what you say before you post it next time.

civilized 5y ago
Interesting how empathy only goes one way with you. Good luck with that. (Nevermind that COVID is no longer an unusual hazard to the fully vaccinated, and everyone has had the opportunity to be fully vaccinated for many months now.)
- neetle 5y ago
  Honestly sounds like the pot calling the kettle black here. You're asking hundreds of people to put their health at risk so that ~2c of every tax dollar you pay isn't wasted. Assuming $100k in tax, you're only paying them $2k, or ~$40 a week. If you really value your daily coffee that much, just buy a coffee machine.
  - civilized 5y ago
    Completely made-up tax numbers aside, such strong opinions about the disposable income of strangers and what they should do with it! Sorry, I'm passing on this offer. Don't call back. Thanks.
    - profile53 5y ago
      Please be kind. The topic is worth debate but your comments are crossing a line and come across rather hostile. I’m not a mod, but as a friendly reminder regarding site rules: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
      - civilized 5y ago
        I have no respect for selective scolding based on subjective definitions of kindness. And I have no hostility towards anyone in this conversation. But I'm not above a sharp retort when I'm being condescendingly lectured to based on flawed premises. They're dishing it out and they can take it too.
        neetle 5y ago
        The premise of your argument seems to be that the public school system is flawed, and that you shouldn't have to pay into it, especially if the teachers aren't working. This implies a lack of care for social responsibility and a lack of respect for the people that are actually having to take the risk. While I appreciate the point of view that it isn't quite fair, I'd point out that a) teachers should have a right to health and safety in the workplace, b) social mobility would be obliterated if you could opt out of funding public schools, and c) you're likely arguing this from an office where you're at much lower risk. It's not a great position to be in, sure. But arguing that we're not being kind in our position when yours seems to be "but they're wasting my money" seems to be borderline misanthropic.
        willcipriano 5y ago
        Do we pay everyone who would prefer to work from home or just teachers? If just teachers why are they special?
        neetle 5y ago
        The fact that you took "teachers should have a right to health and safety in the workplace" as "WFH only or not" is either naive or disingenuous. This isn't a binary, and I'm surprised that someone would assume as such.
  - anamax 5y ago
    > Assuming $100k in tax, you're only paying them $2k Where are you getting your numbers? In California, public education is guaranteed >50% of state spending. That's on top of federal and local spending. (Schools in "rich" areas don't get state funding, so they must locally fund. Some of that locally-raised money is taken by the state.) Grocery store people work and have contact with far more people....
    - neetle 5y ago
      > Where are you getting your numbers? I suspect I had mixed up federal and total tax revenue %. We're still only talking an avg of $4k per working person for the entire system though, if you take the total funding sans property tax and divvy it up by the working population (90bn, ~30% prop tax, 16.9mil working pop). I realise the avg isn't going to be representative of the general population, but the marginal utility of money should roughly scale with the amount of that paid per-person. > Grocery store people work and have contact with far more people. Honestly not entirely sure of your source on this. I'd suspect that having several hundred students in the same building for an entire day with central AC would be more of a petrie dish than your typical grocery store most of the week.
      - anamax 5y ago
        > you take the total funding sans property tax Since property tax is a huge source of school funding, "sans property tax" is like saying that we're going to ignore taxes paid by folks who live in detached houses. > > Grocery store people work and have contact with far more people. > Honestly not entirely sure of your source on this. Several hundred is a fairly large school, such schools don't have a single HVAC system, AND Covid doesn't work that way. Moreover, you significantly underestimate store traffic. (Far more people go to grocery stores than go to schools.) Costcos have 750 parking spaces and they turn-over 10-12x times a day. Even with only one person per car, that's 750 different people/day, >5k/week, or >15k/month. (Schools are the same people every day.) Walmarts are comparable. Yes, Costco is 2-3x bigger than the typical grocery store but there's still no comparison. Grocery store workers have far more exposure than teachers.
- amatecha 5y ago
  I seriously resent your insulting comment. Take your hostile judgement elsewhere.
  - civilized 5y ago
- dang 5y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. Please make your substantive points without such swipes in the future. Besides not contributing to poisoning this place and setting it on fire, that will also make your point of view more persuasive to others. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jimmydddd 5y ago
Re: "grossly underpaid." My son's (NJ) public high school art teacher gets $115k for working Sept-June, plus weeks off in December and April. Retirement at 55 with pension and subsidized health care. Not awful.
- amatecha 5y ago
  Ah, here in greater Vancouver area, you will never reach a 6-digit salary as a public school teacher. The highest you can ever reach (that I could find[0]) in any school district is $97k CAD which is about $76k USD, and that's only after hitting 10 years. You start out as a teacher around $47k CAD or $37k USD. When you also consider our ~SF-levels cost of living... that's pretty low. Staff in other roles such as education assistant make far less than that. Also, to be a teacher here you must have 4 years of post-secondary education and a degree, so you're likely starting out with tens of $thousands of student loans. [0] https://bcpsea.bc.ca/teachers/collective-agreements/salary-grids/ https://bcpsea.bc.ca/teachers/collective-agreements/salary-g...
- david38 5y ago
  NJ is one of the highest paying states in the country. That said, the biggest issue affecting the profession is lack of respect, not pay.

civilized 5y ago

Interesting how empathy only goes one way with you. Good luck with that. (Nevermind that COVID is no longer an unusual hazard to the fully vaccinated, and everyone has had the opportunity to be fully vaccinated for many months now.)

neetle 5y ago
Honestly sounds like the pot calling the kettle black here. You're asking hundreds of people to put their health at risk so that ~2c of every tax dollar you pay isn't wasted. Assuming $100k in tax, you're only paying them $2k, or ~$40 a week. If you really value your daily coffee that much, just buy a coffee machine.
- civilized 5y ago
  Completely made-up tax numbers aside, such strong opinions about the disposable income of strangers and what they should do with it! Sorry, I'm passing on this offer. Don't call back. Thanks.
  - profile53 5y ago
    Please be kind. The topic is worth debate but your comments are crossing a line and come across rather hostile. I’m not a mod, but as a friendly reminder regarding site rules: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
    - civilized 5y ago
      I have no respect for selective scolding based on subjective definitions of kindness. And I have no hostility towards anyone in this conversation. But I'm not above a sharp retort when I'm being condescendingly lectured to based on flawed premises. They're dishing it out and they can take it too.
      - neetle 5y ago
        The premise of your argument seems to be that the public school system is flawed, and that you shouldn't have to pay into it, especially if the teachers aren't working. This implies a lack of care for social responsibility and a lack of respect for the people that are actually having to take the risk. While I appreciate the point of view that it isn't quite fair, I'd point out that a) teachers should have a right to health and safety in the workplace, b) social mobility would be obliterated if you could opt out of funding public schools, and c) you're likely arguing this from an office where you're at much lower risk. It's not a great position to be in, sure. But arguing that we're not being kind in our position when yours seems to be "but they're wasting my money" seems to be borderline misanthropic.
        willcipriano 5y ago
        Do we pay everyone who would prefer to work from home or just teachers? If just teachers why are they special?
        neetle 5y ago
        The fact that you took "teachers should have a right to health and safety in the workplace" as "WFH only or not" is either naive or disingenuous. This isn't a binary, and I'm surprised that someone would assume as such.
- anamax 5y ago
  > Assuming $100k in tax, you're only paying them $2k Where are you getting your numbers? In California, public education is guaranteed >50% of state spending. That's on top of federal and local spending. (Schools in "rich" areas don't get state funding, so they must locally fund. Some of that locally-raised money is taken by the state.) Grocery store people work and have contact with far more people....
  - neetle 5y ago
    > Where are you getting your numbers? I suspect I had mixed up federal and total tax revenue %. We're still only talking an avg of $4k per working person for the entire system though, if you take the total funding sans property tax and divvy it up by the working population (90bn, ~30% prop tax, 16.9mil working pop). I realise the avg isn't going to be representative of the general population, but the marginal utility of money should roughly scale with the amount of that paid per-person. > Grocery store people work and have contact with far more people. Honestly not entirely sure of your source on this. I'd suspect that having several hundred students in the same building for an entire day with central AC would be more of a petrie dish than your typical grocery store most of the week.
    - anamax 5y ago
      > you take the total funding sans property tax Since property tax is a huge source of school funding, "sans property tax" is like saying that we're going to ignore taxes paid by folks who live in detached houses. > > Grocery store people work and have contact with far more people. > Honestly not entirely sure of your source on this. Several hundred is a fairly large school, such schools don't have a single HVAC system, AND Covid doesn't work that way. Moreover, you significantly underestimate store traffic. (Far more people go to grocery stores than go to schools.) Costcos have 750 parking spaces and they turn-over 10-12x times a day. Even with only one person per car, that's 750 different people/day, >5k/week, or >15k/month. (Schools are the same people every day.) Walmarts are comparable. Yes, Costco is 2-3x bigger than the typical grocery store but there's still no comparison. Grocery store workers have far more exposure than teachers.
amatecha 5y ago
I seriously resent your insulting comment. Take your hostile judgement elsewhere.
- civilized 5y ago
dang 5y ago
Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. Please make your substantive points without such swipes in the future. Besides not contributing to poisoning this place and setting it on fire, that will also make your point of view more persuasive to others. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jimmydddd 5y ago

Re: "grossly underpaid." My son's (NJ) public high school art teacher gets $115k for working Sept-June, plus weeks off in December and April. Retirement at 55 with pension and subsidized health care. Not awful.

amatecha 5y ago
Ah, here in greater Vancouver area, you will never reach a 6-digit salary as a public school teacher. The highest you can ever reach (that I could find[0]) in any school district is $97k CAD which is about $76k USD, and that's only after hitting 10 years. You start out as a teacher around $47k CAD or $37k USD. When you also consider our ~SF-levels cost of living... that's pretty low. Staff in other roles such as education assistant make far less than that. Also, to be a teacher here you must have 4 years of post-secondary education and a degree, so you're likely starting out with tens of $thousands of student loans. [0] https://bcpsea.bc.ca/teachers/collective-agreements/salary-grids/ https://bcpsea.bc.ca/teachers/collective-agreements/salary-g...
david38 5y ago
NJ is one of the highest paying states in the country. That said, the biggest issue affecting the profession is lack of respect, not pay.