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What's the alternative? Have some PM+EM write a perfectly detailed spec for you to implement? That sounds like hell. I can't imagine spending all my time buildi

by rtlfe 5y ago

What's the alternative? Have some PM+EM write a perfectly detailed spec for you to implement? That sounds like hell. I can't imagine spending all my time building something that I had no input on designing.

tikhonj 5y ago
I mean, that's one direction. But we could also give the part-time engineer more autonomy so that they can quickly make decisions on their own. They'll still need to spend time talking to people, but they can figure out an effective way to do that based on context—which might start out with them spending more time during the week just talking to people, but will fall off quickly once they build an understanding of their domain and the external interfaces of whatever they're building. If my experience is anything to go by, this sort of self-directed collaboration—think "design discussions" rather than "meetings" or "ceremonies"—will end up far more productive for everyone involved.
- rtlfe 5y ago
  The comment that started this whole thing said "Meetings and collaboration to figure out what to build, discuss issues etc". I think that covers both categories of good and bad types of collaboration you describe here.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mattm 5y ago
For some engineers that would be bliss. They just want to churn through tickets and not have to talk to anyone (or very little).
- ebiester 5y ago
  And I can get someone for a quarter of the price who can do that on Upwork. (That isn’t to degrade anyone on upwork, but to point out that the code itself is a fraction of the job.) It might be more work to develop a specification that requires no context to complete than to do it myself. I too would crave a part time programming job, mind you, but I think that only works on a team that is completely part time.
  - atleta 5y ago
    I agree, writing the code is usually just a fraction of the work but I've yet to see someone who is good at it, costs a quarter and doesn't care about the rest of the job. (Even without the costs quarter condition.)
zackify 5y ago
Hire senior level people part time. That don’t need to spend lots of time getting context. They can figure out how to solve problems matching your team’s coding style without extra meetings.
- yibg 5y ago
  You're assuming the team works on something most developers know enough about. Often times that's not the case and it takes time to get familiar.
- rtlfe 5y ago
  Understanding the problem and how to solve it is harder and more important than matching code style. Unless you're working on trivial CRUD web apps or something where problems and solutions are obvious.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Believe me, don't get me wrong, I would gladly trade 50% of my salary to work part time. But... That don’t need to spend lots of time getting context. They can figure out how to solve problems matching your team’s coding style without extra meetings. I've worked a variety of enterprise-y developer jobs, and I don't find that to be the case at all. I mean, that context is the job. Coding bits of functionality for an existing business is not a matter of "matching the team's coding style." Heck, there are often not even engineering "problems" to "solve." It's a matter of figuring out integration with existing systems and processes, understanding the business itself, etc. That's why part-timers don't make sense. They can't just walk in, sit down, and code. And if you could tee things up for them, to the point where they could just sit down and code, then 90% of the work is already done. And your part-time coder will take longer to deliver... why would management want to wait 2 weeks for a part time person to complete 40 hours of pure coding work, versus 1 week for a fulltimer?
  - kodah 5y ago
    Well, I think knowing the business is important on most feature work, but what if part time folks were cleaning up well-defined tech debt? Usually I know exactly what my tech debt is, I roll my eyes at it as I force myself to leave it alone. Then as I get loaded down for feature work or important bug fixes it just rots in my backlog til I notice it sometime later.
eyelidlessness 5y ago
The alternative in my experience is working on a team with a shared sense of mission. We meet at most one hour a week. We do a lot of asynchronous collaboration, it’s not always as efficient as it could be, but no one is asking for more meeting time to address that.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  > We do a lot of asynchronous collaboration, It sounds like you just amortize the "meetings" differently. Having to answer lots of async emails / slacks can waste just as much time as scheduled meetings.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    We actually do most of this in issues and review. Chat is used as it should be: clarification, refining ideas in progress. I’m more sensitive to communication overhead than most, I recognize meetings masked as other communications, this is definitely not that.
ihateolives 5y ago
> I can't imagine spending all my time building something that I had no input on designing. Sounds like you work at startup rather than corporate. My current job is basically building on something somebody else has already prototyped. I hate it, it makes my days dull. But then one day I realized, that if I could do it as a part time job then I'd have no qualms of not wasting my mental energy, I'd gladly do what is required, clock out and spend my creative energy outside of work or with other part time gigs.
_hcuq 5y ago
Email? The occasional 5 minute phone call to clarify things?
deterministic 5y ago
In the last 10 years, I have been in maybe one or two meetings each year. Everything else is done online. And I spend about 20 min a day max communicating online. And we are working on complex enterprise applications used by international airlines, airports and national rail companies. It works great. Spending 10+ hours a week in meetings is crazy.

by rtlfe 5y ago

tikhonj 5y ago

I mean, that's one direction. But we could also give the part-time engineer more autonomy so that they can quickly make decisions on their own. They'll still need to spend time talking to people, but they can figure out an effective way to do that based on context—which might start out with them spending more time during the week just talking to people, but will fall off quickly once they build an understanding of their domain and the external interfaces of whatever they're building. If my experience is anything to go by, this sort of self-directed collaboration—think "design discussions" rather than "meetings" or "ceremonies"—will end up far more productive for everyone involved.

rtlfe 5y ago
The comment that started this whole thing said "Meetings and collaboration to figure out what to build, discuss issues etc". I think that covers both categories of good and bad types of collaboration you describe here.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mattm 5y ago

For some engineers that would be bliss. They just want to churn through tickets and not have to talk to anyone (or very little).

ebiester 5y ago
And I can get someone for a quarter of the price who can do that on Upwork. (That isn’t to degrade anyone on upwork, but to point out that the code itself is a fraction of the job.) It might be more work to develop a specification that requires no context to complete than to do it myself. I too would crave a part time programming job, mind you, but I think that only works on a team that is completely part time.
- atleta 5y ago
  I agree, writing the code is usually just a fraction of the work but I've yet to see someone who is good at it, costs a quarter and doesn't care about the rest of the job. (Even without the costs quarter condition.)

zackify 5y ago

Hire senior level people part time. That don’t need to spend lots of time getting context. They can figure out how to solve problems matching your team’s coding style without extra meetings.

yibg 5y ago
You're assuming the team works on something most developers know enough about. Often times that's not the case and it takes time to get familiar.
rtlfe 5y ago
Understanding the problem and how to solve it is harder and more important than matching code style. Unless you're working on trivial CRUD web apps or something where problems and solutions are obvious.
JohnBooty 5y ago
Believe me, don't get me wrong, I would gladly trade 50% of my salary to work part time. But... That don’t need to spend lots of time getting context. They can figure out how to solve problems matching your team’s coding style without extra meetings. I've worked a variety of enterprise-y developer jobs, and I don't find that to be the case at all. I mean, that context is the job. Coding bits of functionality for an existing business is not a matter of "matching the team's coding style." Heck, there are often not even engineering "problems" to "solve." It's a matter of figuring out integration with existing systems and processes, understanding the business itself, etc. That's why part-timers don't make sense. They can't just walk in, sit down, and code. And if you could tee things up for them, to the point where they could just sit down and code, then 90% of the work is already done. And your part-time coder will take longer to deliver... why would management want to wait 2 weeks for a part time person to complete 40 hours of pure coding work, versus 1 week for a fulltimer?
- kodah 5y ago
  Well, I think knowing the business is important on most feature work, but what if part time folks were cleaning up well-defined tech debt? Usually I know exactly what my tech debt is, I roll my eyes at it as I force myself to leave it alone. Then as I get loaded down for feature work or important bug fixes it just rots in my backlog til I notice it sometime later.

eyelidlessness 5y ago

The alternative in my experience is working on a team with a shared sense of mission. We meet at most one hour a week. We do a lot of asynchronous collaboration, it’s not always as efficient as it could be, but no one is asking for more meeting time to address that.

dahfizz 5y ago
> We do a lot of asynchronous collaboration, It sounds like you just amortize the "meetings" differently. Having to answer lots of async emails / slacks can waste just as much time as scheduled meetings.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  We actually do most of this in issues and review. Chat is used as it should be: clarification, refining ideas in progress. I’m more sensitive to communication overhead than most, I recognize meetings masked as other communications, this is definitely not that.

ihateolives 5y ago

> I can't imagine spending all my time building something that I had no input on designing. Sounds like you work at startup rather than corporate. My current job is basically building on something somebody else has already prototyped. I hate it, it makes my days dull. But then one day I realized, that if I could do it as a part time job then I'd have no qualms of not wasting my mental energy, I'd gladly do what is required, clock out and spend my creative energy outside of work or with other part time gigs.

_hcuq 5y ago

Email? The occasional 5 minute phone call to clarify things?

deterministic 5y ago

In the last 10 years, I have been in maybe one or two meetings each year. Everything else is done online. And I spend about 20 min a day max communicating online. And we are working on complex enterprise applications used by international airlines, airports and national rail companies. It works great. Spending 10+ hours a week in meetings is crazy.