7 ms·

Almost all of the people I see doing startups are young college, or just out of college, kids with nothing to lose or people who are already extremely rich. I

by Apreche 15y ago

Almost all of the people I see doing startups are young college, or just out of college, kids with nothing to lose or people who are already extremely rich. I work to live, I don't live to work. I flat out refuse to work more than 9-5 and even that is too much. These startups expect you to give them your entire lives, 24 hours a day, and weekends, and eat nothing but ramen. I don't know about you guys, but I have rent to pay. I need to be paid with real cash, guaranteed. I also need to spend as little time at work as possible in order to earn that cash. I have more important things to do, like sleeping, eating, and spending time with friends and family. I can almost understand the punk kids who do startups, since they have nothing to lose. I absolutely can not understand the VCs or the rich people who do startups. These people have millions of dollars already. As nice and cool as they may be when you meet them, they are fundamentally in a business of greed. They can already retire to a private tropical island forever, but instead they are going to spend their money making some trivial social web app to squeeze out a few advertising dollars. That's perhaps the real reason I don't do a startup. Nobody wants to give me money because they know that as soon as the check clears I'll be out the door never to be seen again.

gavanwoolery 15y ago
If you want to understand millionaires who continue to do startups, here are a few possible reasons: 1) They enjoy work, even if they are working on something that is seemingly trivial. 2) One million dollars is not enough. Nor is 10. In fact, most people that earn a few million rarely retire after that. It is more a game of power, fame, and (possibly) goodwill than wealth. Bill Gates could have retired much earlier, but instead he amassed a huge amount of wealth and started one of the world's biggest charities (the Gates Foundation). Warren Buffet spends very little on himself - he owns one house that he bought for a small sum of money, and he gave 99 percent of his money to the Gates Foundation. That said, there is a fine line between the "punk kids" (who are usually the designers and developers) and the founders in larger companies. Founders in their second, third, and etc...companies typically have very comfortable lifestyles.
- protagonist_h 15y ago
  > most people that earn a few million rarely retire after that If you give a few million to random person, 99% chance he/she will retire. However, people who EARN few million rarely retire. I imagine that's precisely the difference between those who make it and those who don't.
freshfey 15y ago
Well, some people start a startup for the sake of creating or for the sake of changing something. Also the thought that your job and paycheck is guaranteed is an illusion. We have seen it time and time again: loyal, hard-working employees get kicked out of a job they worked 20 years just because the company is "re-structuring". Unless you're very specialized and non-replaceable, you're at risk, too. The risk is WAY lower than starting and succeeding with a startup, but still.
bmcmanus 15y ago
Frankly, this is just sad. Your answer is based entirely on the premise that working for a startup boils down to killing yourself for the chance to get rich, which couldn't be further from the truth. The "rich people" who do startups do it because they love building things that solve big problems, the work hours and payouts are, if they're lucky, just a byproduct. Sure, I'm 24 and I have basically nothing to lose, but really I have no choice - I have to build things. I can't deal with just performing maintenance. And even if you are ok with just performing maintenance, working in a small team is simply more fun than working at a larger one. Seriously, reflect more on this. Writing off startups because they're "in a business of greed" is a straw man at best.
- potatolicious 15y ago
  Well that was a very arrogantly-worded post. Maybe you didn't mean it to be, but that's certainly how it comes off. I'm working at a small company doing some incredibly cool "building" stuff, and not in maintenance at all - and I get a steady paycheck and good benefits. There doesn't need to be this dichotomy. There are tons of us out there who work 9-5, enjoy life, don't kill ourselves, yet get to build incredibly cool things with small teams of cool people. Really, the only downside of my job compared to a startup is that I don't have the potential payout of $[millions], and somehow I'm okay with that. The quality of my life is incredibly high, I set my own hours, and yet because we're not busting our ass just to survive I get to stop and smell the roses. It's pretty cool.
  - true_religion 15y ago
    > Well that was a very arrogantly-worded post. Maybe you didn't mean it to be, but that's certainly how it comes off. Possibly its a bit strongly worded because he's responding to someone who names start up founders as "punk kids" with "nothing to lose", then declares that he's not doing a startup because he's found things that are more important.
    - willpower101 15y ago
      and that he would take the money and run. lol. who does that? I want startup life because I want to own my own company from the ground up. I would love to set my own hours at a normal company. But how rare is that? Where do you work that you can do that?
tsycho 15y ago
Have you ever considered that people might want to do a startup because they want to build something of their own? Not for the unlikely potential money (or not necessarily for it), but because they want to see their product/invention used by others around the world? Because they find the thought of being a cog in the wheel of a large company mind-numbingly boring, even if it pays very well? It's not for everyone, and I am not saying you should think like the above, but please try to appreciate that some people actually do think like that.
tomcreighton 15y ago
As a counterpoint, I'm 32. I have a wife and own a house, and get to spend precious little time with either. I gave up my secure agency job to join a startup and I'm working on side startups of my own. Not because I'm greedy, but because I love building things. I can't imagine doing anything else.
DanielRibeiro 15y ago
This makes it seem that starting a startup is a way to make money. As Myth: Entrepreneurship Will Make You Rich[1] says: So why become an entrepreneur instead of developing technology in an R&D lab? Three reasons: change the world, make customers’ lives better and create an organization of lasting value. If you only want to do one of these things, there are better options. But only startups combine all three. Making money is a fuel to a goal, not a goal in itself. As Tim O'Reilly[2] put it very well: You should regard money as fuel for what you really want to do, not as a goal in and of itself. Money is like gas in the car -- you need to pay attention or you'll end up on the side of the road -- but a well-lived life is not a tour of gas stations! [1] http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2009/10/myth-entrepreneurship-will-make-you.html http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2009/10/myth-entreprene... [2] http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/work-on-stuff-that-matters-fir.html http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/work-on-stuff-that-matters-...
- Apreche 15y ago
  You are crazy rich. You have millions to burn on some VC. You have an idea for software that is actually legitimately useful and world changing. Screw a startup. Just start an open source project. Changes the world, makes people's lives better, creates an organization of lasting value, isn't a startup. Why do all these commenters seem to think you need a for profit company in order to make things? The Internet is nothing but billions of things that have been made for free in people's spare time. I want nothing more than infinite spare time to make whatever I please as I please as I relax in a tropical paradise with the people I care about. Startups are the opposite of that.
  - ctide 15y ago
    It's not just building software, building companies is inherently fun. It's a different set of challenges problems that need to be solved. It's ok that you have a different mentality, but understand that it's just that, a different mentality. Some people enjoy the hustle and bustle of building organizations more than lounging on tropical beaches for the rest of their lives.
gatlin 15y ago
> As nice and cool as they may be when you meet them, they are fundamentally in a business of greed. +1. I like HN but I don't understand why the size of the business / method of funding matters so much, as opposed to what is being done, unless I put on my cynic hat. Once affixed, I realize it's because getting millions in VC (rather than grinding for it) and then selling out to an established player, or selling before the IPO, is incredibly sexy. A really safe business strategy is to become a middle man who allows other organizations to operate smoothly. You then sidestep having to take a stance on any major issue and make money off other people using the service to do something truly remarkable. By no means am I familiar with all of YC's businesses but the ones on the front page are basically infrastructure applications. While neat, it seems like the sexiest businesses are ones where you don't actually make something, but you make a tool for someone else to make something. FogCreek sells, among others, a bug tracker, a closed version of an open dvcs, and a Windows RDP clone. Dropbox syncs files and revisions across computers. Others let you create database wrappers ("forms"), create blogs, or find incredibly expensive travel accommodations. I am a user or I want to be a user of most of them, actually, but I'd be lying if I said they are revolutionary or useful on their own. They're safe business strategies with incredibly intelligent, motivated people at the helm. Now, won't those intelligent, motivated people stop working on cat-pictures projects? I'd do something but I'm too stupid so I'm relying on smart people to change the world. EDIT: I know FogCreek isn't a YC venture. I made a really poor segue into talking about businesses with the startup mentality I read about, not specifically YC ones. Oy, what a day.
rdl 15y ago
I'm in my 30s, not super-rich (rich by 99% of the world's standards, but it's not like I can buy a house in Palo Alto or anything, yet), and working on a startup (as a co-founder with 2 guys who have been my friends/professional colleagues for >15y). My main cost is opportunity; I could easily make 200-400k/yr consulting or working somewhere else. I have enough savings and lifestyle hacks to live pretty comfortably while working on the startup, and we've raised enough money to pay ourselves minimal salaries too once we decide to do so. If someone gave me $5mm cash, I'd be working on exactly the same thing -- the only difference is I'd go on $30-40k of vacations per year vs. maybe $5k, and I'd possibly invest in some other startups. I don't think I'd be willing to work on a random social media ad network or facebook game for $250k/yr now or after getting $5mm, but if you're working on problems you genuinely care about, and a startup is the best way to solve those problems, I don't see why money would be much of a factor (as long as you could subsist). I spent 5-10h/wk doing work-related things I wouldn't do otherwise (meeting with VCs or vendors, mainly); the rest of my time is spent working with people I like on problems I want to solve.

by Apreche 15y ago

gavanwoolery 15y ago

If you want to understand millionaires who continue to do startups, here are a few possible reasons: 1) They enjoy work, even if they are working on something that is seemingly trivial. 2) One million dollars is not enough. Nor is 10. In fact, most people that earn a few million rarely retire after that. It is more a game of power, fame, and (possibly) goodwill than wealth. Bill Gates could have retired much earlier, but instead he amassed a huge amount of wealth and started one of the world's biggest charities (the Gates Foundation). Warren Buffet spends very little on himself - he owns one house that he bought for a small sum of money, and he gave 99 percent of his money to the Gates Foundation. That said, there is a fine line between the "punk kids" (who are usually the designers and developers) and the founders in larger companies. Founders in their second, third, and etc...companies typically have very comfortable lifestyles.

protagonist_h 15y ago
> most people that earn a few million rarely retire after that If you give a few million to random person, 99% chance he/she will retire. However, people who EARN few million rarely retire. I imagine that's precisely the difference between those who make it and those who don't.

freshfey 15y ago

Well, some people start a startup for the sake of creating or for the sake of changing something. Also the thought that your job and paycheck is guaranteed is an illusion. We have seen it time and time again: loyal, hard-working employees get kicked out of a job they worked 20 years just because the company is "re-structuring". Unless you're very specialized and non-replaceable, you're at risk, too. The risk is WAY lower than starting and succeeding with a startup, but still.

bmcmanus 15y ago

Frankly, this is just sad. Your answer is based entirely on the premise that working for a startup boils down to killing yourself for the chance to get rich, which couldn't be further from the truth. The "rich people" who do startups do it because they love building things that solve big problems, the work hours and payouts are, if they're lucky, just a byproduct. Sure, I'm 24 and I have basically nothing to lose, but really I have no choice - I have to build things. I can't deal with just performing maintenance. And even if you are ok with just performing maintenance, working in a small team is simply more fun than working at a larger one. Seriously, reflect more on this. Writing off startups because they're "in a business of greed" is a straw man at best.

potatolicious 15y ago
Well that was a very arrogantly-worded post. Maybe you didn't mean it to be, but that's certainly how it comes off. I'm working at a small company doing some incredibly cool "building" stuff, and not in maintenance at all - and I get a steady paycheck and good benefits. There doesn't need to be this dichotomy. There are tons of us out there who work 9-5, enjoy life, don't kill ourselves, yet get to build incredibly cool things with small teams of cool people. Really, the only downside of my job compared to a startup is that I don't have the potential payout of $[millions], and somehow I'm okay with that. The quality of my life is incredibly high, I set my own hours, and yet because we're not busting our ass just to survive I get to stop and smell the roses. It's pretty cool.
- true_religion 15y ago
  > Well that was a very arrogantly-worded post. Maybe you didn't mean it to be, but that's certainly how it comes off. Possibly its a bit strongly worded because he's responding to someone who names start up founders as "punk kids" with "nothing to lose", then declares that he's not doing a startup because he's found things that are more important.
  - willpower101 15y ago
    and that he would take the money and run. lol. who does that? I want startup life because I want to own my own company from the ground up. I would love to set my own hours at a normal company. But how rare is that? Where do you work that you can do that?

tsycho 15y ago

Have you ever considered that people might want to do a startup because they want to build something of their own? Not for the unlikely potential money (or not necessarily for it), but because they want to see their product/invention used by others around the world? Because they find the thought of being a cog in the wheel of a large company mind-numbingly boring, even if it pays very well? It's not for everyone, and I am not saying you should think like the above, but please try to appreciate that some people actually do think like that.

tomcreighton 15y ago

As a counterpoint, I'm 32. I have a wife and own a house, and get to spend precious little time with either. I gave up my secure agency job to join a startup and I'm working on side startups of my own. Not because I'm greedy, but because I love building things. I can't imagine doing anything else.

DanielRibeiro 15y ago

This makes it seem that starting a startup is a way to make money. As Myth: Entrepreneurship Will Make You Rich[1] says: So why become an entrepreneur instead of developing technology in an R&D lab? Three reasons: change the world, make customers’ lives better and create an organization of lasting value. If you only want to do one of these things, there are better options. But only startups combine all three. Making money is a fuel to a goal, not a goal in itself. As Tim O'Reilly[2] put it very well: You should regard money as fuel for what you really want to do, not as a goal in and of itself. Money is like gas in the car -- you need to pay attention or you'll end up on the side of the road -- but a well-lived life is not a tour of gas stations! [1] http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2009/10/myth-entrepreneurship-will-make-you.html http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2009/10/myth-entreprene... [2] http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/work-on-stuff-that-matters-fir.html http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/work-on-stuff-that-matters-...

Apreche 15y ago
You are crazy rich. You have millions to burn on some VC. You have an idea for software that is actually legitimately useful and world changing. Screw a startup. Just start an open source project. Changes the world, makes people's lives better, creates an organization of lasting value, isn't a startup. Why do all these commenters seem to think you need a for profit company in order to make things? The Internet is nothing but billions of things that have been made for free in people's spare time. I want nothing more than infinite spare time to make whatever I please as I please as I relax in a tropical paradise with the people I care about. Startups are the opposite of that.
- ctide 15y ago
  It's not just building software, building companies is inherently fun. It's a different set of challenges problems that need to be solved. It's ok that you have a different mentality, but understand that it's just that, a different mentality. Some people enjoy the hustle and bustle of building organizations more than lounging on tropical beaches for the rest of their lives.

gatlin 15y ago

> As nice and cool as they may be when you meet them, they are fundamentally in a business of greed. +1. I like HN but I don't understand why the size of the business / method of funding matters so much, as opposed to what is being done, unless I put on my cynic hat. Once affixed, I realize it's because getting millions in VC (rather than grinding for it) and then selling out to an established player, or selling before the IPO, is incredibly sexy. A really safe business strategy is to become a middle man who allows other organizations to operate smoothly. You then sidestep having to take a stance on any major issue and make money off other people using the service to do something truly remarkable. By no means am I familiar with all of YC's businesses but the ones on the front page are basically infrastructure applications. While neat, it seems like the sexiest businesses are ones where you don't actually make something, but you make a tool for someone else to make something. FogCreek sells, among others, a bug tracker, a closed version of an open dvcs, and a Windows RDP clone. Dropbox syncs files and revisions across computers. Others let you create database wrappers ("forms"), create blogs, or find incredibly expensive travel accommodations. I am a user or I want to be a user of most of them, actually, but I'd be lying if I said they are revolutionary or useful on their own. They're safe business strategies with incredibly intelligent, motivated people at the helm. Now, won't those intelligent, motivated people stop working on cat-pictures projects? I'd do something but I'm too stupid so I'm relying on smart people to change the world. EDIT: I know FogCreek isn't a YC venture. I made a really poor segue into talking about businesses with the startup mentality I read about, not specifically YC ones. Oy, what a day.

rdl 15y ago

I'm in my 30s, not super-rich (rich by 99% of the world's standards, but it's not like I can buy a house in Palo Alto or anything, yet), and working on a startup (as a co-founder with 2 guys who have been my friends/professional colleagues for >15y). My main cost is opportunity; I could easily make 200-400k/yr consulting or working somewhere else. I have enough savings and lifestyle hacks to live pretty comfortably while working on the startup, and we've raised enough money to pay ourselves minimal salaries too once we decide to do so. If someone gave me $5mm cash, I'd be working on exactly the same thing -- the only difference is I'd go on $30-40k of vacations per year vs. maybe $5k, and I'd possibly invest in some other startups. I don't think I'd be willing to work on a random social media ad network or facebook game for $250k/yr now or after getting $5mm, but if you're working on problems you genuinely care about, and a startup is the best way to solve those problems, I don't see why money would be much of a factor (as long as you could subsist). I spent 5-10h/wk doing work-related things I wouldn't do otherwise (meeting with VCs or vendors, mainly); the rest of my time is spent working with people I like on problems I want to solve.