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Bingo. It should be telling that there are a number of, usually for-profit, resources for prepping for just the interview process: * leetcode * Cracking the

Bingo. It should be telling that there are a number of, usually for-profit, resources for prepping for just the interview process: * leetcode * Cracking the Coding Interview * Elements of Programing Interviews * Interview Kickstart, which costs like $5500, is a bootcamp just for passing interviews * educative.io * algoexpert.io That being said, I might just play along with the DS / Algo interview game. Having an interview process that is artificially arduous and way outside the expectations of the job duties means that the job market will stay artificially inflated on the demand side. Hiring leetcode monkeys who can barely deploy and manage k8s cluster on AWS means the demand for my skills will be more valuable than if the interview process actually worked. I can complain all day to my bosses about how hard it is to hire (its not that hard) and meanwhile rip their HR budget to shreds when I threaten to leave unless I get paid more (I've done that before, I recently got a promotion and 50% raise on base alone). So yeah, I'll gatekeep as long as others play too. I hate the game, but I will play it to my advantage.

mkl95 5y ago
> I can complain all day to my bosses about how hard it is to hire (its not that hard) and meanwhile rip their HR budget to shreds when I threaten to leave unless I get paid more (I've done that before, I recently got a promotion and 50% raise on base alone). Kudos for that. I may be making a similar move soon.
majormajor 5y ago
What is that supposed to be telling? There are a quite a few industries where there are profitable neighbor industries around breaking in to it. Even ones with licensing and blah blah blah instead of whiteboards. Hell, the cynics would call the entire current university system one! And if not that, than it least the massive industries around getting into better schools...
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Why don’t other STEM fields have those neighbor/parasite industries?
  - naniwaduni 5y ago
    Oh, boy, now let me tell you about medical school.
  - thetallstick 5y ago
    They do. Google “VLSI interview prep”
  - pc86 5y ago
    Science typically requires advanced degrees, publications, etc. You're not doing much of anything a lay person would consider you a "scientist" for with just a Bachelor's. Getting these degrees serves as the hurdle/filter. Math is the same as science. You're probably not getting hired as a mathematician if you just graduated with your Bachelor's. [Non-software] engineering has all the professional certification, shadowing, etc. that is required to get very far in the field. Software is the only STEM career you can get into right out of high school, being completely self taught. Yes obviously a degree helps and it's much easier with one, but not having advanced degrees is a non-starter for most STEM careers, let alone not having one at all.
forum_ghost 5y ago
The hiring rigmarole is just an IQ test in disguise. The only downside, you can prep for IQ tests, and spend unlimited time doing the prep. If only someone would come up with a way to control for how long they prepped for this: one week on hackerrank, or 2 years of courses. I bet those that learn the rigmarole faster, will also pickup k8s and other such fairly ephemeral trivia rather quickly as well.
- game_the0ry 5y ago
  > The hiring rigmarole is just an IQ test in disguise. Do you have any data to back a claim that ridiculous? I hear this bullshit all the time, yet nothing to back it up. If you think IQ would be a good hiring signal, then just administer an IQ test instead of LC question.
  - forum_ghost 5y ago
    I agree with you in that, we should drop this nonsense, and administer IQ tests legally. Until laws change, this rigmarole will continue though. Administering IQ tests is illegal, that's why this rigmarole exists in the first place. The military isn't subject to silly laws like that, and they do administer IQ tests directly, and place talent accordingly.
ketzo 5y ago
I know you think you’re making a “cynical but rational” kind of argument here, but man, this comment is a huge fucking bummer. You’re acknowledging that you have the both the ability and the knowledge to change (your small part of) a shitty system, and instead you’re pulling up the ladder behind you. That sucks. You should not let yourself feel good about that, even if it’s “economically rational” or whatever. You’re making things just a little worse for everyone but yourself — actually, even for yourself, too — and trying to excuse it with “well, that’s just the way things work!”
- stillblue 5y ago
  What do you suggest instead?
  - csa 5y ago
    Make the pie bigger.
  - ketzo 5y ago
    I mean, I don't even have to suggest; I can let the OP suggest instead. > Having an interview process that is artificially arduous Make your interviews less artificially arduous. > way outside the expectations of the job duties Re-design your interview questions to be more in line with the actual job. > leetcode monkeys who can barely deploy and manage k8s cluster on AWS See previous suggestion. If you want my personal suggestions on interviewing better: - Interview for problem-solving process, not just for correctness. A candidate's ability to solve an algo problem in 45 minutes is much less important than their ability to calmly, thoroughly, and clearly explain the way that they think. - Tune interviews to the role at hand. This should be obvious, but for some reason full-stack web devs still have to pretend like dynamic programming is a big part of their daily work. - More systems interviews. I find that it's much harder to bullshit/memorize here, at least not for very long. - Interviews based on actually building stuff. "Hey, here's a super simplified version of a feature someone in your role built last month. Can you walk us through how you would build the same thing?" Interviewing is hard. It's not that fucking hard. When someone is out here complaining about what they see as obvious flaws in their process, and then decide that the best course of action is to "gatekeep as long as others play too," it just reeks of laziness and self-interest. This does not get better unless individuals decide to start making it better. That's my biggest suggestion, really; don't become a cog in the machine. Every single interview that you, personally, conduct has a small but meaningful impact. It's up to you to have that impact be positive or negative.
vippy 5y ago
gmadsen 5y ago
Personally, I'd much rather rather have a strong understanding of Algo/DS than deploy K8s clusters. To me, not only is that an annoying external cognitive load, but one that will probably be irrelevant within the decade. I use my knowledge of graphs quite frequency, and what was true about graphs in the 60s is still true today.

mkl95 5y ago

> I can complain all day to my bosses about how hard it is to hire (its not that hard) and meanwhile rip their HR budget to shreds when I threaten to leave unless I get paid more (I've done that before, I recently got a promotion and 50% raise on base alone). Kudos for that. I may be making a similar move soon.

majormajor 5y ago

What is that supposed to be telling? There are a quite a few industries where there are profitable neighbor industries around breaking in to it. Even ones with licensing and blah blah blah instead of whiteboards. Hell, the cynics would call the entire current university system one! And if not that, than it least the massive industries around getting into better schools...

Apocryphon 5y ago
Why don’t other STEM fields have those neighbor/parasite industries?
- naniwaduni 5y ago
  Oh, boy, now let me tell you about medical school.
- thetallstick 5y ago
  They do. Google “VLSI interview prep”
- pc86 5y ago
  Science typically requires advanced degrees, publications, etc. You're not doing much of anything a lay person would consider you a "scientist" for with just a Bachelor's. Getting these degrees serves as the hurdle/filter. Math is the same as science. You're probably not getting hired as a mathematician if you just graduated with your Bachelor's. [Non-software] engineering has all the professional certification, shadowing, etc. that is required to get very far in the field. Software is the only STEM career you can get into right out of high school, being completely self taught. Yes obviously a degree helps and it's much easier with one, but not having advanced degrees is a non-starter for most STEM careers, let alone not having one at all.

forum_ghost 5y ago

The hiring rigmarole is just an IQ test in disguise. The only downside, you can prep for IQ tests, and spend unlimited time doing the prep. If only someone would come up with a way to control for how long they prepped for this: one week on hackerrank, or 2 years of courses. I bet those that learn the rigmarole faster, will also pickup k8s and other such fairly ephemeral trivia rather quickly as well.

game_the0ry 5y ago
> The hiring rigmarole is just an IQ test in disguise. Do you have any data to back a claim that ridiculous? I hear this bullshit all the time, yet nothing to back it up. If you think IQ would be a good hiring signal, then just administer an IQ test instead of LC question.
- forum_ghost 5y ago
  I agree with you in that, we should drop this nonsense, and administer IQ tests legally. Until laws change, this rigmarole will continue though. Administering IQ tests is illegal, that's why this rigmarole exists in the first place. The military isn't subject to silly laws like that, and they do administer IQ tests directly, and place talent accordingly.

ketzo 5y ago

I know you think you’re making a “cynical but rational” kind of argument here, but man, this comment is a huge fucking bummer. You’re acknowledging that you have the both the ability and the knowledge to change (your small part of) a shitty system, and instead you’re pulling up the ladder behind you. That sucks. You should not let yourself feel good about that, even if it’s “economically rational” or whatever. You’re making things just a little worse for everyone but yourself — actually, even for yourself, too — and trying to excuse it with “well, that’s just the way things work!”

stillblue 5y ago
What do you suggest instead?
- csa 5y ago
  Make the pie bigger.
- ketzo 5y ago
  I mean, I don't even have to suggest; I can let the OP suggest instead. > Having an interview process that is artificially arduous Make your interviews less artificially arduous. > way outside the expectations of the job duties Re-design your interview questions to be more in line with the actual job. > leetcode monkeys who can barely deploy and manage k8s cluster on AWS See previous suggestion. If you want my personal suggestions on interviewing better: - Interview for problem-solving process, not just for correctness. A candidate's ability to solve an algo problem in 45 minutes is much less important than their ability to calmly, thoroughly, and clearly explain the way that they think. - Tune interviews to the role at hand. This should be obvious, but for some reason full-stack web devs still have to pretend like dynamic programming is a big part of their daily work. - More systems interviews. I find that it's much harder to bullshit/memorize here, at least not for very long. - Interviews based on actually building stuff. "Hey, here's a super simplified version of a feature someone in your role built last month. Can you walk us through how you would build the same thing?" Interviewing is hard. It's not that fucking hard. When someone is out here complaining about what they see as obvious flaws in their process, and then decide that the best course of action is to "gatekeep as long as others play too," it just reeks of laziness and self-interest. This does not get better unless individuals decide to start making it better. That's my biggest suggestion, really; don't become a cog in the machine. Every single interview that you, personally, conduct has a small but meaningful impact. It's up to you to have that impact be positive or negative.

vippy 5y ago

gmadsen 5y ago

Personally, I'd much rather rather have a strong understanding of Algo/DS than deploy K8s clusters. To me, not only is that an annoying external cognitive load, but one that will probably be irrelevant within the decade. I use my knowledge of graphs quite frequency, and what was true about graphs in the 60s is still true today.